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Lost - The Full Series Thread

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Maybe it is Ilana and the rest of the Ajira peeps.

Well, that's the obvious answer, isn't it. But maybe, as was posited before, it's the losties themselves shooting at themselves. Maybe it's Jack and some of the others trying to kill their past selves in an effort to stop everything happening the way it did.

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Well, that's the obvious answer, isn't it.

Yes I guess so.

I forgot we were discussing Lost so this...

But maybe, as was posited before, it's the losties themselves shooting at themselves. Maybe it's Jack and some of the others trying to kill their past selves in an effort to stop everything happening the way it did.

or something insane like this is probably more likely.

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Aye. It would be amusing if the incident unhinges the other losties in time like before, and the whole of season six is just Jack's wacky adventures trying to prevent them from ever landing on the island, but all he does is just make things happen.

Every episode woul just end on a close up of Jack going, "FFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-!"

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Aye. It would be amusing if the incident unhinges the other losties in time like before, and the whole of season six is just Jack's wacky adventures trying to prevent them from ever landing on the island, but all he does is just make things happen.

So are we pretty set on "what happened happened" being the rules in the Lost universe? I guess Daniel's death and "you knew" to Eloise after she shot him confirms this? So Jack, whatever he does is doomed to failure? They always land on the island no matter what?

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I think so. What happened, happened. There's no other way it would work. As Spongeman pointed above, if they stop the plane crashing, then they never land on the island to go back in time to stop the plane crashing, so the plane would then crash ad infinitum... Although, thinking back, remember the first time jumping episode with Desmond and what Eloise said about course correction... It is possible to alter time, but it will find a way back to its initial course at some point. Like with Charlie's death. But then, Charlie had to stay alive to recognise the Good Vibrations tune and put that in the underwater computer place... Hmmm...

So yes, I'm sticking with whatever happened, happened.

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Actually there's another bit, the underwater thingy, the code. Bonny says it was programmed by a musician. Who did this? Will we find out?

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Aye. It would be amusing if the incident unhinges the other losties in time like before, and the whole of season six is just Jack's wacky adventures trying to prevent them from ever landing on the island, but all he does is just make things happen.

Every episode woul just end on a close up of Jack going, "FFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-!"

That would be an awesome spin-off series, I'd watch that :lol:

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Did we ever get to know who Henry Gale really was, and how he found the island by travelling by a hot airballoon?

Nope. Qutie a lot of the earlier stuff (50s - 70s) seems patchy still. How did Charles Widmore's group find the island, how did Dharma get started (Hanso from the Black rock being another immortal maybe). Exactly why it's "complicated" between Eloise and Charles and why the latter couldn't have sent his goon squad of mercs round to see Eloise to get the details of the next flight over the island, why he hand picked a science team who all had prior connectioins to the island...

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I think so. What happened, happened. There's no other way it would work. As Spongeman pointed above, if they stop the plane crashing, then they never land on the island to go back in time to stop the plane crashing, so the plane would then crash ad infinitum... Although, thinking back, remember the first time jumping episode with Desmond and what Eloise said about course correction... It is possible to alter time, but it will find a way back to its initial course at some point. Like with Charlie's death. But then, Charlie had to stay alive to recognise the Good Vibrations tune and put that in the underwater computer place... Hmmm...

So yes, I'm sticking with whatever happened, happened.

I think the Desmond factor and Eloise's obsession with everyone following their path casts enough doubt onto the 'whatever happeend, happened' theory to allow them to do anything at the start of the next season. Desmond can make minor changes, which means that bigger changes could theoretically be made, leading to some kind of alternate timeline.

Saying that, I don't think Jack and co changed anything during the incident.

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I'm trying to understand, I really am.

But in (possibly) causing the incident, we're now saying that the Losties are going to crash land as we saw in Season 1 and these events happen forever, in some sort of self-fulfilling prophecy loop type thing? And in that case surely they can change time, otherwise they're in a loop forever?

So what we are watching now is this event happening for the first time as it were? Otherwise, how do we account for them having been children and having lives before the crash? If that makes sense. It doesn't does it?

Christ this is hurting me head; it's more complicated that Total Recall.

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I'm trying to understand, I really am.

But in (possibly) causing the incident, we're now saying that the Losties are going to crash land as we saw in Season 1 and these events happen forever, in some sort of self-fulfilling prophecy loop type thing? And in that case surely they can change time, otherwise they're in a loop forever?

So what we are watching now is this event happening for the first time as it were? Otherwise, how do we account for them having been children and having lives before the crash? If that makes sense. It doesn't does it?

Christ this is hurting me head; it's more complicated that Total Recall.

You're Hurley aren't you? :(

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Present day Richard said he watched all the 70s Losties die, this leads to to think that they won't do what we all think they'll do (having the nuke transport Jack and co to the present day), and instead what will happen is we will see the Jack and co die in the 70s after the nuke, then Desmond (presumably) will somehow alter the timeline and prevent them being killed. Oh, I don't fucking know!

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Richard said he saw them die, but he was presumably nowhere near the Swan and the bomb when it went off. So could he be referring to a later occasion, or alternate timeline, or something? Hmmm....

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I'm trying to understand, I really am.

But in (possibly) causing the incident, we're now saying that the Losties are going to crash land as we saw in Season 1 and these events happen forever, in some sort of self-fulfilling prophecy loop type thing? And in that case surely they can change time, otherwise they're in a loop forever?

So what we are watching now is this event happening for the first time as it were? Otherwise, how do we account for them having been children and having lives before the crash? If that makes sense. It doesn't does it?

Christ this is hurting me head; it's more complicated that Total Recall.

They're not in a loop forever.

Easiest way to describe it as follows.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------- (this line is time for most people - a straight line)

---------------------------------------
---- -------------------

The second two lines are, say, Jack's lifetime. The first line is his life up until he jumps back to 1977. He spends a little bit of time there before jumping back to 2007.

Does that make sense. Time, the top line, stays the same, but Jack's life, his place in time, just doesn't follow the same linear path. However, nothing he can do can alter the path of the main time line as it all already happened.

Does that make sense?

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In that I'm fat?

Or that I'm the constant?

It's the other one, isn't it? :(

I still don't get it.

You don't get the concept of time travel in Lost! I'm referencing the whole Hurley/Miles conversation a few episodes ago.

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Richard said he saw them die, but he was presumably nowhere near the Swan and the bomb when it went off. So could he be referring to a later occasion, or alternate timeline, or something? Hmmm....

Maybe, and i'm reaching now so stay with me, he is assuming that after he sent them on their way with the bomb into Dharmaville, he hears a large explosion so he assumes they died. Although he did say he watched them die. Oh I don't bloody know.

I'm trying to understand, I really am.

But in (possibly) causing the incident, we're now saying that the Losties are going to crash land as we saw in Season 1 and these events happen forever, in some sort of self-fulfilling prophecy loop type thing? And in that case surely they can change time, otherwise they're in a loop forever?

So what we are watching now is this event happening for the first time as it were? Otherwise, how do we account for them having been children and having lives before the crash? If that makes sense. It doesn't does it?

Christ this is hurting me head; it's more complicated that Total Recall.

Basically what is unclear, as Miles mentioned, is if The Incident is the Dharma dudes drilling into the energy or if the incident is actually, and always has been, the drilling and the Losties setting off the bomb. When Faraday comes back on the sub he seems to know for sure that the drilling is going to cause a surge of energy which causes Oceanic 815 to crash and then a freighter, with Faraday/Miles/Charlotte to come after them. This is when he decides to use the bomb to stop it. Man i'm confused. I was OK before I started thinking about it.

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They're not in a loop forever.

Easiest way to describe it as follows.

A perhaps better way to explain things.

Jack bites into an apple in 2007. He swallows that apple in 1977. What has happened? The temporal part of Jack that was his biting into the apple is followed by the temporal part of his swallowing the apple, just like normal. What isn't normal is that the first takes place at a later time than the second. Jack has not changed time by travelling back to an earlier period, it's just that he's an object whose story through time is not a single straight line.

Time is such that the temporal location of every temporal part of every object is fixed. That is, the temporal part of me that is typing this post is located at 12:50 AM on Thursday, 21 May 2009. The temporal part of me that comes after that one need not be at 12:51 AM on Thursday, 21 May 2009. It could be at any time whatsoever. But it is still the next temporal part of me. My causal history does not follow a continuous chain of contiguous temporal parts; contiguity can come apart from continuity, adjacent temporal parts can be separated by an arbitrary length of time, in either direction of time.

Jack always swallowed the apple in 1977. That temporal part of him was fixed at that time. All temporal parts of him are fixed at their respective times. The same is true for every object in the universe (except Desmond, and maybe Jacob or maybe the writers will change their minds...). Let's say we cut Jack out of time and line up each of his temporal parts; for his causal history to make sense they have to lined up in a certain order. Longer hair comes after shorter hair, because his hair grew. Ingested food comes before digested food, because digestion is something that happens to ingested food, not the other way round. The watch on his wrist shows 1AM first, then 2AM, so the temporal part with the former comes before the latter. And so on. We place each of the temporal parts side by side and we get the complete causal history of Jack, from birth to death, in order. Now we can place any one of those temporal parts anywhere in time, and they will still be in order, it's just they won't be in chronological order. That's weird, but not inconsistent. Time flows forwards like normal, but objects can have chronologically disordered temporal parts allowing their later stages to appear earlier in time than their earlier stages. But that does not permit them to change anything. Note that I have nowhere used the terms 'future' and 'past', because there's no such thing from this perspective. Or rather, the past is entirely relative to which temporal part of Jack (fixed to some location in time) we are interested in. 1930 is the past of both the temporal part of Jack in 1977 swallowing the apple, and the Jack in 2007 eating the apple, but 1980 is the past of only the latter. We might say, in 2007, 1980 is Jack's past but it will become the future for him.

OK, the more I wrote the more convoluted it all seemed to get. For anyone struggling to follow the conception of time travel Lost is using, I recommend reading this http://www.scribd.com/doc/11547480/The-Par...vel-David-Lewis since Lewis explains it far better than I ever could.

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WHAT? WHAT APPLE? IS THIS AN APPLE FROM S2 THAT I FORGOT ABOUT?

Kidding, obviously. That seems to convolute things quite a bit though, dude: as far as I can understand it, the Hurley-Miles conversation about "this is our present" seemed to put the timeline thing pretty straight for me, at least until you get into over-over-analysis of the prediction kind.

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OK, the more I wrote the more convoluted it all seemed to get. For anyone struggling to follow the conception of time travel Lost is using, I recommend reading this http://www.scribd.com/doc/11547480/The-Par...vel-David-Lewis since Lewis explains it far better than I ever could.

Woah, that paper does not explain things clearly at all! I understand perfectly what he's getting it, it just makes things harder to grasp.

One bit I do like is where he says the idea of a 'chaperone' in time travel stories (i.e some unseen force making sure what happens, happens) is lazy and unnecessary. In Lost they call this "the universe course correcting". There's no need for it.

EDIT: Actually, the bit about 'closed loops' is good too, where he talks about pieces of information being conveyed from the future to the past, with the information not actually being generated by anything. The compass paradox in Lost.

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sorry if this has been mentioned before - but has anyone else noticed Eloise is the LEADER of the OTHERS in the 70's?

richard tells jack that he is just protecting the leader when he bangs her over the head in the finale (to stop her entering darmaville). which means alot of series 6 has to be how she lost that position to young ben, and how her and witmore were banished off the island by the boy leader ben.

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EDIT: Actually, the bit about 'closed loops' is good too, where he talks about pieces of information being conveyed from the future to the past, with the information not actually being generated by anything. The compass paradox in Lost.

As Lewis points out, that's not paradoxical: "Strange! But not impossible, and not too different from inexplicabilities we are already inured to. Almosst everyone agrees that God, or the Big Bang, or the entire infinite pastof the universe or the decay of a tritium atom, is uncaused and inexplicable."

What would be paradoxical is the bomb going off and everything being changed, flight 815 never crashing etc. (Unless we start talking about different timelines, but I really do not see Lost doing that, not with only one season left.)

The best stuff in Lewis's paper is on the grandfather paradox for the last four pages (though the stuff on fatalism is largely irrelevant to Lost, I think). A few read throughs of Lewis will, I think, give you a much better grasp of what's going on in Lost, even if it seems to make things more difficult to begin with. It's a dense paper, but it's an excellent account of the issues of temporal paradox that Lost, largely, aligns itself to.

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Didn't the writers say

they were done with all the time travel stuff

? I'd fully expect the final season to focus more on the consequence, which has nothing to do with alternate time lines and dimensions.

It's pretty much going to be present day all out war and answers. It's proper exciting thinking of it, I loved the way they handled the shoot out scenes in the finale, and I'm expecting much more.

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As Lewis points out, that's not paradoxical: "Strange! But not impossible, and not too different from inexplicabilities we are already inured to. Almosst everyone agrees that God, or the Big Bang, or the entire infinite pastof the universe or the decay of a tritium atom, is uncaused and inexplicable."

What would be paradoxical is the bomb going off and everything being changed, flight 815 never crashing etc. (Unless we start talking about different timelines, but I really do not see Lost doing that, not with only one season left.)

The best stuff in Lewis's paper is on the grandfather paradox for the last four pages (though the stuff on fatalism is largely irrelevant to Lost, I think). A few read throughs of Lewis will, I think, give you a much better grasp of what's going on in Lost, even if it seems to make things more difficult to begin with. It's a dense paper, but it's an excellent account of the issues of temporal paradox that Lost, largely, aligns itself to.

Or just watch Twelve Monkeys :(

I do agree that Lost aligns itself with the 'single timeline' view, but it's just that pesky Desmond with his little changes that keeps me in doubt. For example, we have seen two versions of Charlie busking in London in the 90s - one where Desmond confronts him about his future, one where he doesn't.

I fully expect the writers to ignore that though. I really do hope the Desmond situation gets some resolution, however.

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Maybe, and i'm reaching now so stay with me, he is assuming that after he sent them on their way with the bomb into Dharmaville, he hears a large explosion so he assumes they died. Although he did say he watched them die. Oh I don't bloody know.

I think that's right actually, Richard will have assumed Jack and co were killed by the nuke (from his perspective they've been gone 30 years now, um... except for when they crashed there in the first place of course), they will then turn up in the present day to join in this war or whatever it is. They must be done with time travel now.

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Didn't the writers say

they were done with all the time travel stuff

? I'd fully expect the final season to focus more on the consequence, which has nothing to do with alternate time lines and dimensions.

It's pretty much going to be present day all out war and answers. It's proper exciting thinking of it, I loved the way they handled the shoot out scenes in the finale, and I'm expecting much more.

I loved how when Jack saw Sayid get shot he turned berserk and started firing away. It was awesome seeing Jack that way.

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It is great when Jack goes mental and starts shooting wildly, pulling faces. It doesn't seem like he'd have any previous gun skills before he came to the island.

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Qualified doctors are well-known for having excellent gunplay skills, even when their personal histories would not suggest this to be the case. Has Jack ever handled a crowbar in Lost? All holding it up in front of his face while crabbing stiffly around the island?

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