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Formula One 2021 - DRAMA - No refunds for you!


T Pot
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48 minutes ago, Sidewaysbob said:

Russell is in grave danger of being forgotten by Mercedes. Would you really take him ahead of a Gasly or Perez.

 

U wot mate?

 

Would I take the guy who has done one race in a Mercedes and only Mercedes stopped him winning it over 2 guys that have already failed at top teams, one of which is barely closer to Max than Bottas is to Lewis?

 

Not to mention George is 9 years younger than Perez.

 

Of course I bloody well would.

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8 hours ago, GwiDan said:

Hamilton doing a poor man’s version of the Beach Boys there singing about small vibrations. 


I literally sang it afterwards. 
 

 

I actually enjoyed that. I do a lot of strategy talking AT my partner (who knows more than me but tolerates it) during races, and I like speculating tire strategy and looking at times and how long it is to stop and who’s the tire test bunny and what can they tell anyone.
I think he used to fall asleep mid race most weeks, but that’s not allowed to happen now. 

 

I think Red Bull had this one easy. Why did Perez qualify on softs? Was he struggling yesterday; I can’t remember. But bringing him in which caused Mercedes to react, I think, was Merc’s first mistake. So worked well for them. 
They brought two cars on mediums in, exactly as Max got a pit stop in hand (like they clearly wanted him to), which meant Max could come in as well. And nothing changed. 
 

The first message we heard to Hamilton was “just to get to the end of the race on the tires”, but he’s in second? So how is that a strategy to win? Then you hear him being told to push which I guess must have been in response to Max’s lap times, because it obviously didn’t mean a second stop. 
 

Verstappen played that balance of push and save the tires just right to be able to open up a huge gap. And even if they’d tried a 2-stop undercut, all Red Bull had to do was pit Max the lap after. As he still retained a stop on Bottas. 
 

It’s like when you get to the point in noughts and crosses where a bear walks in and eats your face. 
 

 

Fucking gutted for Russell obv. He’s getting better in that car. Better on Saturdays and on Sundays. If Perez stays this good and finishes ahead of Bottas, I think there’ll be a swap. 
 

Also gutted for Gasly because he’s been quite consistently strong. And really happy Tsunoda had another solid performance in the same car. He’s doing me wonders in the fantasy league! If I hadn’t missed the first race I’d be in the points by now 😅

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Perez was on softs to try and jump Lewis off the line, as Bottas was always going to be behind the redbull (I know qualifying is never guaranteed, but the probability was a top 3 spot on Sunday). 

They knew they had the race pace because they'd seen that on the practice long runs. 

Merc was always struggling with pace, so Perez on softs was gamble on a Redbull 1-2 finish. 

The slow stop didn't really help, and Bottas was faster than expected. Lewis was Lewis. 

 

Merc were always on the back foot. They were 0.5 seconds slower down the start finish straight, they were never going to make that up. 

 

Lewis wanted to know if there was a shot at the two stop strategy, but there wasn't really enough laps left for it to work and they didn't really have the pace for it. He might as well push and see if Max would burned the tyres out. The degradation was higher than expected, but not enough to make a difference. Max held him at around 4 seconds, merc realised the game was up and picked up the fastest lap. 

 

Mercedes saved a 2-3 finish. Redbull lost a 1-2 finish. 

 

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8 hours ago, wev said:

I'm wondering if Russell to Mercedes is a good idea, he seems to have as much luck as Jean Alesi (🥰}

 

Or Danny Ric who has now spent the last few years of his career chasing the title challenging car he probably thought he was stepping into in 2014. 

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Danny is a strange fish. Clearly very fast and brave, he can tag a bad car further than it should go. But in a good car, he just seems average. 

I think, because there is so little testing these days, a driver doesn't have enough time to fully understand how a far wants to be driven. All the new bugs are struggling. Old hands like Vettel and Alonso seem to have sorted things out. But Ricky is still clearly struggling. 

 

When he first rocked up I thought he'd be in a top ranked car eventually. But your right, he's doesn't seem to be getting the seats in the right cars at the right time. And he always seems to leave teams under a bit of a cloud. I'm not sure he likes to play nicely with other drivers. He's certainly spurred Lando onto better things.

 

He's sort of like Rosberg, a good driver that would win the title only if everything was perfect and all the other drivers crashed. 

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So it seems Perez has been running old parts for the last few races while Max got updates. Not taking anything away from Max’s drive - he’s on fire but I do wonder just how much closer SP would have been to Ham had he had parity with the car that’s crushed in the past few races.

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9 hours ago, wev said:

I'm wondering if Russell to Mercedes is a good idea, he seems to have as much luck as Jean Alesi (🥰}

 

Showing my age here, but wasn't that the tag that Mansell had for a while before it all came together for him?

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7 minutes ago, Plissken said:

 

Showing my age here, but wasn't that the tag that Mansell had for a while before it all came together for him?


He certainly had some bad luck with mechanical issues when challenging for the title a couple of times; a blowout here, a wheel nut there. My dad’s friend who worked as a designer at McLaren at the time was convinced there was a conspiracy against him.
 

A big part of his career was in a time period when there was real depth of talent on the grid too, with five or six drivers in cars capable of winning races.

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I'm not sure that's true. It was more about the cars and which one was going to fail that weekend. 

 

Here's the top ten from 1992 when mansell won the title.

 

image.png.bbe6497bfb5c443237cf0fb3468f2b1d.png

 

The williams was an absolute beast that year, but look at the number of retirements.

Patreses was just the car

Schumacher was obviously top talent. 

Senna could never get on with the cars once they went full digital

Berger classic journeyman

Brundle, lovely chap, but english.

Alesi, if he didn't have bad luck,he'd have had no luck.

Hakkinen, needed a kick up the arse to get going,

De Cesaris was a danger to himself and anyone else on the track and he finished 9th. 

Alboreto was a nice italian chap that was living the dream of having driven a really shit Ferrari and was seeing out his days in a footworks!

 

Championships were won and lost by reliability in those days more often than not. 

 

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But Mansell had a run where he either won or it all went wrong.  I want to say 85-87 ish?  Adelaide most obviously, but the wheel nut was... Hungary? I think that he had an early reputation for the car breaking on him where Piquet could nurse it home.  From about 1988 it seemed he got some reliability luck that was at least on a par with his rivals.

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How was the Red Bull half a second quicker than Mercedes on the straight?

 

I've heard this a couple of times and it seems massive. Has something changed very recently?

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1 hour ago, Plissken said:

But Mansell had a run where he either won or it all went wrong.  I want to say 85-87 ish?  Adelaide most obviously, but the wheel nut was... Hungary? I think that he had an early reputation for the car breaking on him where Piquet could nurse it home.  From about 1988 it seemed he got some reliability luck that was at least on a par with his rivals.


He had an unstoppable Williams at that point, which Prost also won in the following year. You’re right, he did have a reputation for being hard on the cars. He wasn’t a smooth driver like Prost for example, he was more of a blood and thunder charger who absolutely rinced them. Earlier in his career he had Prost, Senna, Piquet and Lauda on track with him too.

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Alesi was much the same, though the Ferraris he drove were also prone to shitting themselves at any given opportunity regardless of what he was doing

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24 minutes ago, SF-02 said:

How was the Red Bull half a second quicker than Mercedes on the straight?

 

I've heard this a couple of times and it seems massive. Has something changed very recently?


The Mercedes is running with a bigger rear wing to compensate for loss of downforce with the floor change. Red Bull can run a skinny wing because they are still getting good downforce from the floor since the rule change hence a higher top speed. The Honda reliability upgrades seems to have given them a power boost as well.

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What’s also worth remembering with regards to car reliability in the 80s is that up until 1989, engines were almost all turbo-charged at ridiculous boost pressures. With that and the high RPM, something in the drivetrain was always going to pop at some point if there was a tiny manufacturing flaw, and there weren’t as many regulations in regard to what materials components had to be made from. In qualifying trim they were getting nearly 1500hp out of 1.5litre engines.

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Yeah, the engines and turbos of the early-to-mid 80s really were basically bombs held together by sticky tape and hope most of the time. Drivers were getting wheelspin in 5th gear, which is absolutely mad. Those cars were bonkers in so, so many ways. I remember reading an interview with... I think either Senna or Mansell where they said they were having to basically apply the throttle two seconds before they wanted it to come in due to the massive turbo lag.

 

Imagine that at Monaco, with manual gears to boot!

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I kind of miss that era with manual gear shift and drivers having to dial their turbo boost up and down in-car to conserve their single tank of fuel. Then again, I also remember that an 8 second pitstop just for tyres was considered a good one !

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Oh yes, indeed - in general, as much as the 80's were... well, the 80's in all their glorious excessive silliness, I'd happily take a little more sanity knowing drivers aren't getting hurt by their cars so much these days. The guy in my avatar feel victim to his car's notorious lack of quality control.

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15 hours ago, wev said:

I'm wondering if Russell to Mercedes is a good idea, he seems to have as much luck as Jean Alesi (🥰}


Don’t they have an engine deal with them that effectively makes Williams their B team where they can test incoming drivers though?

I thought Wolff has said that he’s been watching him very carefully, and with Russell and Bottas both on just 1 year contracts, it does seem that he’s waiting for the right time to move him up? Just my uneducated speculation though. 
 


Speaking of speculations, has anyone got any surrounding the financial effort Mercedes is putting into next year’s car and where it’s going, and perhaps where Red Bull will come a cropper for not prioritising next year?

 

Also, is that just bollocks from Mercedes? I can’t imagine Hamilton is happy at potentially sacrificing this year’s championship for next years? Especially when they’re saying it’s all down to whether the car is good enough (which may obviously be the case), but is still a fucking kick in the teeth to hear as a driver I’d imagine. It’s like hearing they don’t have faith in you. 

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27 minutes ago, NexivRed said:


Don’t they have an engine deal with them that effectively makes Williams their B team where they can test incoming drivers though?

I thought Wolff has said that he’s been watching him very carefully, and with Russell and Bottas both on just 1 year contracts, it does seem that he’s waiting for the right time to move him up? Just my uneducated speculation though. 
 


Speaking of speculations, has anyone got any surrounding the financial effort Mercedes is putting into next year’s car and where it’s going, and perhaps where Red Bull will come a cropper for not prioritising next year?

 

Also, is that just bollocks from Mercedes? I can’t imagine Hamilton is happy at potentially sacrificing this year’s championship for next years? Especially when they’re saying it’s all down to whether the car is good enough (which may obviously be the case), but is still a fucking kick in the teeth to hear as a driver I’d imagine. It’s like hearing they don’t have faith in you. 

Yeah Russell is a Mercedes driver and there may be an Alfa/Ferrari deal that Williams & Mercedes have that has helped Russell into that seat, his agent is also Toto Wolff (as is Bottas) which is why there's so much talk about him moving up into the Mercedes seat. Ocon was/is also a Mercedes Jnr driver but I don't think his agent is/was Wolff.

 

My point was more on that if something was going to happen to any driver on the grid to hamper their race weekend, it feels (though maybe isn't statistically true) like it would happen to Russell, who, let's face it, is getting more out of that Williams than he should be doing. Jean Alesi did similar when he first arrived in Formula 1, a few times he was competing against Sennas McLaren whilst driving a Tyrrell, who by then we're clinging on to the sport by their arse cheeks much like Williams are now.

 

Alesi was then in line to the Williams seat, but good old Frank was being his dickish self, Ferrari came calling, Alesi listened to his Sicilian side, joined the Prancing Horse and spent 4 years or so being in positions where he could win the race only for his Ferrari (or the team) to explode, until his birthday in 1995 where the racing god's finally let him win a race.

 

This form continued at Benneton for 2 years, then he was in steadily worse cars until he left the sport, do some decent stuff in DTM I think and then resurfacing in Nikki Lauda's Ferrari for the Classic F1 race at Monaco  this year only for him to have the same kind of luck as his actual F1 career.

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The car simply isn't fast enough on the straights. Because the rules have been changed which favours high rake cars. 

It would require a fundamental ground up car change to beat that. 

The cost cap means they can't do that now. The engine freeze means they can't find more power. 

 

Lewis will win some more races, and might even take the championship to the last few rounds. But they have a car that isn't suited to the regulations now and with only a year left of this rule set, there is no point trying to fix the major problem.

 

It's why Daddy Stroll was quite prepared to take the FIA to court over this. They have been shafted and know there's nothing they can do. The car was designed with one philosophy and the FIA rules give that a good kicking. 

 

It's nothing to do with Lewis's ability to win. It's a car problem. When they turned up to the first test the back end of the car was more twitchy than a tory cabinet minister in the secretary pool. They've dialed out some of the instability, but at the cost of drag. It also looks like the sweet spot is on a knife edge. As Bottas showed in Baku, if the tyres don't get up to temperature the thing is really hard to handle. 

 

Williams aren't really a Merc B team in the same way as Redbull and Alpha Touri are. It's an engine deal and a bit of technical partnership. Williams has always been a proud independent team, with the sale of the team, that might change. But Toto can't call up the Williams pit wall and tell them to block Max. 

 

Also, Williams need money, they know Russell is an asset and won't release him unless they get paid big bucks... But the cost cap etc etc. 

 

Russell is managed by Toto, which is why he's been following him 

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7 hours ago, mexos said:

So it seems Perez has been running old parts for the last few races while Max got updates. Not taking anything away from Max’s drive - he’s on fire but I do wonder just how much closer SP would have been to Ham had he had parity with the car that’s crushed in the past few races.

 

Is this going to be used by whoever it was to get out of the bet? ;)

 

6 hours ago, Plissken said:

 

Showing my age here, but wasn't that the tag that Mansell had for a while before it all came together for him?

 

Mansell was absolutely a Bottas until 1986.  He was kicked in the face each of his first 4 seasons at Lotus by Elio Di Angelis and by Keke Rosberg at Williams. Despite that tyre blow up in 86, he still had 1 fewer retirement than Piquet and beat him by a point.

 

So yeah, if he'd had a teammate in 1992 that didn't fundamentally hate the car it's possible it could have gone a lot worse for him.  Other than Ricardo Patrese and 1986 he only beat a full year teammate once, Elio in 1983.

 

Elio finished 2 (two) races that entire year.

 

 

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1 hour ago, NexivRed said:

it does seem that he’s waiting for the right time to move him up?

George is virtually certain to get the big seat next year and Valtteri is doing everything he can to make sure of it. 

 

1 hour ago, NexivRed said:

Speaking of speculations, has anyone got any surrounding the financial effort Mercedes is putting into next year’s car and where it’s going, and perhaps where Red Bull will come a cropper for not prioritising next year?

Red Bull have kept 25% of their staff working on developing this year's car. Don't know what staff Mercedes are using in that regard, but I'm guessing fewer. RB have a lot of staff so it should be plenty to fully prioritise next year's car.

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6 hours ago, Plissken said:

But Mansell had a run where he either won or it all went wrong.  I want to say 85-87 ish?  Adelaide most obviously, but the wheel nut was... Hungary? I think that he had an early reputation for the car breaking on him where Piquet could nurse it home.  From about 1988 it seemed he got some reliability luck that was at least on a par with his rivals.

 

Mansell was always tougher on his car and tyres than other drivers. Now, the tyre blowout in Australia was unlucky (I believe it was a drain cover?). But I also remember a Canadian Grand Prix where he smashed up his gearbox, meaning what was a nailed-on victory saw him limp to the line in 5th/6th. And I think I mentioned in this thread before the Brands Hatch race where he messed up his clutch on the grid and caused a massive pile-up in turn 1 (leading to the injuries that ended Jacques Lafitte’s career).

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1 hour ago, Blue said:

Red Bull have kept 25% of their staff working on developing this year's car. Don't know what staff Mercedes are using in that regard, but I'm guessing fewer. RB have a lot of staff so it should be plenty to fully prioritise next year's car.

They all have the same budget cap, and going for glory big on developing this years car as they seem to be doing means less to spend on the 2022 car.

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2 minutes ago, layten said:

They all have the same budget cap, and going for glory big on developing this years car as they seem to be doing means less to spend on the 2022 car.

 

Why is that? Isn't the 2021 budget for the 2021 car and the 2022 budget for the 2022 car and never the twain shall meet? You can't spend the 2022 budget on the 2021 car, can you?

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  • T Pot changed the title to Formula One 2021 - DRAMA - No refunds for you!
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