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Which Dark Souls?

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6 hours ago, kempstar said:

So it is at least debatable. But in my opinion DS3 has far, far better bosses. There are barely any rubbish ones, and there are loads of amazing ones - Dancer, Aldritch, Sulyvahn, Nameless King, Champion Gundyr for example.

That's interesting about the bosses, because I really didn't like any of those (maybe Aldritch). I much prefer the approach to bosses in DS1, where nearly all of them are a different kind of challenge, and ask you to consider the space and environment around you. Even when it gets it wrong (Bed of Chaos) it's an attempt to test another one of your skills. For me that's much more interesting than yet another big armoured bloke in a flat open space with attack patterns to learn. It's fine in its own way, but very un-Dark Souls.

 

And as for that big drop in quality in DS1 that people are always on about. I don't see it. There's one part (Demon Ruins/Izalith) that feels rushed and uninspired. Every other area is outstanding. It's the only one of these games that I've wanted to play through many times as well, which I wouldn't have done if the later areas were poor.

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12 hours ago, Benny said:

Actually I'd say Remastered looks way better than 3 on PS4 - it's a full 60fps and sharp as hell.

I just had to look at some videos of the remaster to see for myself. I pretty much ignored it at release, because I’d played through the original not so long ago.

 

I’m sure the 60fps is nice, especially in Blighttown, but graphically it doesn’t look like much has changed and it’s certainly nowhere near 3 in terms of quality. The way you were talking made me think they’d actually redone the graphics and the ‘remaster’ name is a bit of a con if you ask me. It’s more like a simple port with a few tweaks.

 

Still, it’s a fantastic game and a great place to start, but he’s in for a treat when he moves to the newer gen games.

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First things first they’re brutal in places. But what a treat you’re in for if you’ve not played any of them. 

No other series offers so much reward after periods of utter agony and frustration. 

Thing is failure is all down to you and your understanding and knowledge of what your up against. Button mashing doesn’t apply here. 

 

Its very marmite as for me it’s one of the greatest game series ever crafted. For others it’s a horrible experience with no joy or fun to be had. 

The law, the way the worlds intertwine, are just mesmerising. 

Id say start with 1 hands down and make sure you understand the mechanics such as summoning. Nightmare bosses can be tackled with help of other players. But some your on your own. And everyone has a few that feel impossible. 

Good luck and hope it’s a series you love. 

 

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2 hours ago, Dave White said:

Id say start with 1 hands down and make sure you understand the mechanics such as summoning. Nightmare bosses can be tackled with help of other players. But some your on your own. And everyone has a few that feel impossible. 

 

I'm playing through the first one at the moment (follow my adventures in the original, non-remastered thread!) and one restriction I've set for myself on this first playthrough is to complete it alone, no summoning of either NPCs or co-op players. :ph34r:

 

There are still some people playing on the 360 judging by the number of ghosts I see, and the occasions when my estus count goes up unexpectedly. But I don't know how that would translate to people responding to my summons.

 

In fact I almost never revive to human unless it's specifically to kindle a bonfire. Mostly because invaders - both player and CPU - scare me so much. (I think the Depths one with the spiky gear is the only NPC phantom I've defeated; I remember getting killed by the Blighttown and Tomb of Giants ones.)

 

Currently up to:

 

Spoiler

* Gravelord Nito. Really struggling with this guy; I have one low-level Divine sword, which I hear would take out the skeletons permanently (several deaths have involved them crowding me), but I don't know how effective it would be with my low INT/FAI stats so I haven't tried using it yet.

* Four Kings. Only tackled them once so far, as the spiral staircase is such a trek from Firelink and Lower New Londo is still a pain to navigate; the Darkroot Basin fire is closer but means going through all those bridge dragons.

* Ceaseless Discharge. I got splattered by this thing soon after killing Quelaag so long ago; I had another attempt at it recently, and got it down to about 40% HP by the time all my estus ran out. I'm able to survive its long-range arm thrust attack, and then use my +3 estus to recover that HP, so I feel like I could brute force tank my way through it with careful estus management. But that'd feel like cheating; I'd rather learn if it's possible to properly avoid that main arm attack, instead of accepting the hit.

* Duke's Archives. Lost the first Seath fight as expected, escaped from prison (THE GRAMOPHONE MUSIC!), found the second bonfire. Now my guess is that I have to use those rotating staircases to find an alternate route to Seath...

 

With the benefit of hindsight, I should have tackled the Catacombs before Ornstein and Smough instead of afterwards, for a more balanced challenge. (Who knows - even Pinwheel might have been more interesting at that point!) I should also have tackled New Londo Ruins before Tomb of the Giants, as being able to ascend weapons above +10 would have been helpful. However Titanite Chunks and Twinkling Titanite are rare so I'm being really cautious in what I spend them on.

 

About 85 hours and 350 deaths so far. Of course, that's not counting my first attempt at tackling the game in 2013, which I restarted a few hours in, after accidentally attacking the game's first merchant. Or my second attempt, which took place sporadically over 2013-2017 and ended at the gates of Blighttown when my 360's HDD died.

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4 hours ago, JPL said:

I just had to look at some videos of the remaster to see for myself. I pretty much ignored it at release, because I’d played through the original not so long ago.

 

I’m sure the 60fps is nice, especially in Blighttown, but graphically it doesn’t look like much has changed and it’s certainly nowhere near 3 in terms of quality. The way you were talking made me think they’d actually redone the graphics and the ‘remaster’ name is a bit of a con if you ask me. It’s more like a simple port with a few tweaks.

 

Still, it’s a fantastic game and a great place to start, but he’s in for a treat when he moves to the newer gen games.

 

I think it's the best looking console Dark Souls entirely because of 60fps specifically. They did also redo the textures in Remastered to allow for higher resolutions though.

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Just now, Benny said:

 

I think it's the best looking console Dark Souls entirely because of 60fps specifically. They did also redo the textures in Remastered to allow for higher resolutions though.

Yeah, I’m sure 60fps is great, but that’s not how it looks, it’s how it plays. It still looks like a last gen game though because of the geometry, lighting and smaller texture library. Not to mention all the fancy tricks we get these days like particles, etc. leave it looking a bit sparse.

 

I mean, dot get me wrong, it’s a fucking amazing game, but I was disappointed a so-called remaster didn’t look much different from the original. I’d love it if they redid it with the Dark Souls 3 engine.

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I prefer my remasters to look exactly the same, just to fix performance and resolution. Otherwise you end up changing the art and it's not exactly the same experience. Otherwise you're getting into remake territory and I would review those for example as their own thing.

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Fair enough. I’m still not sure how anyone could think it looks better than DS3 though. The art direction afforded by the power of this generation really brought the world to life for me and was the perfect progression of their art style.

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6 hours ago, BadgerFarmer said:

That's interesting about the bosses, because I really didn't like any of those (maybe Aldritch). I much prefer the approach to bosses in DS1, where nearly all of them are a different kind of challenge, and ask you to consider the space and environment around you. Even when it gets it wrong (Bed of Chaos) it's an attempt to test another one of your skills. For me that's much more interesting than yet another big armoured bloke in a flat open space with attack patterns to learn. It's fine in its own way, but very un-Dark Souls.

 

And as for that big drop in quality in DS1 that people are always on about. I don't see it. There's one part (Demon Ruins/Izalith) that feels rushed and uninspired. Every other area is outstanding. It's the only one of these games that I've wanted to play through many times as well, which I wouldn't have done if the later areas were poor.

 

Not even Champion Gundyr? He is probably one of my favourite bosses in the entire series, precisely because of the way it rewards you for learning the patterns and the timing.

 

I used to struggle at SL80+, but now I can parry him to death at SL1 without getting hit, with a target shield and a fire dagger.

 

Those are the kinds of bosses I love - hit really hard, but learn the patterns and timing and you can destroy them (also I missed out Prince Lothric!). 

 

In my mind the drop off in quality in Dark Souls was quite bad for the second half of the game. But actually, looking back through the level list, it is only really the two you mention plus crystal caves which are not that great, so it isnt that bad. It just felt like at the time!

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19 minutes ago, JPL said:

Fair enough. I’m still not sure how anyone could think it looks better than DS3 though. The art direction afforded by the power of this generation really brought the world to life for me and was the perfect progression of their art style.

 

3 just wasn't as memorable. The locations weren't as iconic or creatively twisted as the first game. There was less of a focus on exploration and interconnected level design, so despite technically being more advanced and modern, a lot of 3 was generic (or just plain awful, like the swamp which was far worse than even the midway slump in DS) and forgettable. Yes, flashier particles and textures, but the world building didn't have the same impact.

 

I can't think of anything in 3 that improved on the original, and a lot of it was clearly worse - having to go back to the hub to level was a step back, lack of merchant variety, less creativity in the boss designs, samey level design, less atmosphere, even the actual goal of what you were doing was less compelling. Still a good game though.

 

 

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25 minutes ago, kempstar said:

Not even Champion Gundyr? He is probably one of my favourite bosses in the entire series, precisely because of the way it rewards you for learning the patterns and the timing.

In a different game I could enjoy that sort of thing. Bloodborne has some bosses like that and it works better because the moveset is that little more dynamic and set up to reward aggressive play. Sekiro even more, although it pushes things too far with multiphase bosses.

 

I think Dark Souls games should be more about strategy, positioning, rather than learning boss combos and exact attack timings. It's one of the things that made the original unique.

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59 minutes ago, Uncle Nasty said:

 

3 just wasn't as memorable. The locations weren't as iconic or creatively twisted as the first game. There was less of a focus on exploration and interconnected level design, so despite technically being more advanced and modern, a lot of 3 was generic (or just plain awful, like the swamp which was far worse than even the midway slump in DS) and forgettable. Yes, flashier particles and textures, but the world building didn't have the same impact.

 

I can't think of anything in 3 that improved on the original, and a lot of it was clearly worse - having to go back to the hub to level was a step back, lack of merchant variety, less creativity in the boss designs, samey level design, less atmosphere, even the actual goal of what you were doing was less compelling. Still a good game though.

 

 

Yeah, all good points, but 3 is still miles better looking. That was my only observation!

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Dark Souls is quite good for the first 5 or so hours but gets pretty boring pretty quickly. The intricacy of the world building at the start is really clever but it loses some of that later on. 

 

Bloodborne is probably the best Souls game. It’s a solid 8/10. 

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19 hours ago, Vemsie said:

 

 

They all are. Except 2.

 

EDIT: too late, I see. :)

 

The second game is actually my favorite. It has hands down the most epic bosses of the series and its most balanced when it comes to poise. The PVP of 2 is also better than the first and third one. 

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2 hours ago, the_debaser said:

Dark Souls is quite good for the first 5 or so hours but gets pretty boring pretty quickly. The intricacy of the world building at the start is really clever but it loses some of that later on. 

 

Bloodborne is probably the best Souls game. It’s a solid 8/10. 

 

Poppycock. 

 

Plus Bloodborne has Rom who for me is on par with an infected wisdom tooth followed by dry socket. ( look it up) 

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2 hours ago, Stevie said:

 

The second game is actually my favorite. It has hands down the most epic bosses of the series and its most balanced when it comes to poise. The PVP of 2 is also better than the first and third one. 

 

Which bosses? Some of the DLC bosses are ace, like Fume Knight, but the main game has nothing on bosses like Ornstein and Smough, Father Gascoigne, The Nameless King, The Two Princes, The Abyss Watchers and Sekiro bosses like 

Spoiler

Demon of Hatred, Owl and Sword-saint Isshin.

 

I can only recall the really crappy ones, like the rats. 

 

But to each his own of course, I think Sekiro has the best bosses, followed by Bloodborne = DS3, DS, DS2.

 

I guess I just prefer more agressive, faster-paced stuff. I hope Elden Ring caters to that playstyle as well.

 

There are a couple of things in DS2 I really like though. The hub, the torch mechanic, the increased magic options and the harbour and Bastille with its two different entry points are ace levels.

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4 hours ago, JPL said:

I’m still not sure how anyone could think it looks better than DS3 though.

 

Of course DS3 is a better looking game as far as the detail and lighting goes, but I struggle to recall many of the areas whereas I can pretty much run through DS in my head without even trying.

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28 minutes ago, Blunted said:

 

Of course DS3 is a better looking game as far as the detail and lighting goes, but I struggle to recall many of the areas whereas I can pretty much run through DS in my head without even trying.

That’s all cool, but like I said, I just can’t see how anyone can think the original remaster is a better looking game! It blatantly isn’t to anyone who’s got eyes.

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Fucking hell, all I said was that DS3 is a better looking game than DS1 and it's turned into this!

 

Anyway, use your eyes for this...

 

Dark Souls Remaster

081546.jpg.bdc95dfb4cf05d6288753748ec791e95.jpg

 

Dark Souls 3pgcqPXG.thumb.jpg.d329af80819e4d389e4edb37f1b1d863.jpg

 

Lighting, texturing, particle effects, etc, etc. all far better in Dark Souls 3.

 

I mean, come on. I honestly don't know why this is even a discussion!

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My view is that Bloodborne and Dark Souls are on a different level to the other entries in the Soulsborne series - they are some of the best games of all time. The others are merely extraordinarily good games -  DS III gets extremely good after the first third, but I doubt anyone would hold it up as one of the best games ever made. So Dark Souls Remastered is a good choice. I think it's a bit like asking what the best Zelda is - Bloodborne and Dark Souls are on a par at least with the very best Zeldas, which to my mind means Link to the Past/Ocarina/BoTW. The others are like the rest of the Zeldas, by which I mean they are still far better than almost any other game, but not the best the series has ever been. But the level design in the first half of Dark Souls is unparalleled anywhere else in the hobby, so I think everyone who like games really ought see that to get what the fuss with this series is all about. 

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19 hours ago, deerokus said:

Nioh

 

I'm going to echo this, but not for the intention of the OP. Nioh is a fantastic game for people who think "Dark Souls isn't actually hard, it's just resistive and respects the player fairly"

 

Nioh in comparison is hard... Very hard. There's a lot more to consider in every battle as you're essentially walking around with 4 weapons equipped, each one with a unique moveset, and constantly switching between them depending on the situation.

 

Nioh is not for everyone, but for those who though O&S were too easy, it's worth a look.

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6 hours ago, Uncle Nasty said:

 

3 just wasn't as memorable. The locations weren't as iconic or creatively twisted as the first game. There was less of a focus on exploration and interconnected level design, so despite technically being more advanced and modern, a lot of 3 was generic (or just plain awful, like the swamp which was far worse than even the midway slump in DS) and forgettable. Yes, flashier particles and textures, but the world building didn't have the same impact.

 

I can't think of anything in 3 that improved on the original, and a lot of it was clearly worse - having to go back to the hub to level was a step back, lack of merchant variety, less creativity in the boss designs, samey level design, less atmosphere, even the actual goal of what you were doing was less compelling. Still a good game though.

 

 

Yep

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12 minutes ago, JPL said:

Fucking hell, all I said was that DS3 is a better looking game than DS1 and it's turned into this!

 

Anyway, use your eyes for this...

 

Dark Souls Remaster

081546.jpg.bdc95dfb4cf05d6288753748ec791e95.jpg

 

Dark Souls 3pgcqPXG.thumb.jpg.d329af80819e4d389e4edb37f1b1d863.jpg

 

Lighting, texturing, particle effects, etc, etc. all far better in Dark Souls 3.

 

I mean, come on. I honestly don't know why this is even a discussion!

 

It just reminds me of how much of DS3 was spent running across nondescript areas, courtyards and cathedrals. Yes it has particle effects and lighting. But it communicates nothing. It's not memorable or iconic. The bridge you linked to in DS is one of the first big holy shit moments in the game. So much happens there that it burns into your brain forever. The graphics are perfect for what it's trying to show you. It doesn't need "improving" with particle effects or other noise.

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