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Football Thread 2019/2020


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7 hours ago, Adrock said:

Even as a Liverpool fan the idea that Jordan Henderson is the best player of this season is laughable.

 

De Bruyne is clearly miles ahead of every other player in the league currently.

Nowhere in the award does it say "best" though, I agree if it was based purely on skill he wouldn't be anywhere near that. 

 

Here's the FWA's own words on the matter:

 

"FWA chair, Carrie Brown, said: “Leadership is intangible and often unquantifiable unless it is inarguable. Jordan Henderson is both the ultimate professional and now a bona fide Liverpool legend. 


“Jordan is a player his team-mates look to on the pitch and who his rivals look up to off it. The voting criteria for the Football Writers’ Association Footballer of the Year is one who leads by precept and example and in this country’s darkest moment, Jordan, unprompted, personally rallied club captains to establish #PlayersTogether."

 

http://footballwriters.co.uk/editorial/jordan-henderson-footballer-of-the-year/

 

It's about so much more than individual skill and he fully deserves it for the way he's driven the team all season. 

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All of that guff doesn't really marry with the reality of the last 10 years.

 

Yes, Henderson is immense in the role he fulfills and he has done brilliantly driving through the player's response to the covid 19 crisis but the fact is the best player gets the award. Of course best player is subjective but it's never take taken into account anything but football and if that was the case this year Henderson wouldn't win. He wouldn't be in the top 5.

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14 minutes ago, Adrock said:

All of that guff doesn't really marry with the reality of the last 10 years.

 

Yes, Henderson is immense in the role he fulfills and he has done brilliantly driving through the player's response to the covid 19 crisis but the fact is the best player gets the award. Of course best player is subjective but it's never take taken into account anything but football and if that was the case this year Henderson wouldn't win. He wouldn't be in the top 5.


Ryan Giggs won the PFA Player of the Year when he was 36 and clearly a nostalgia pick as he neared the end of his career. Henderson isn’t a unique case and the winner the people choosing are on a level with those who pick the SPOTY shortlist. If City don’t win the Champions League would KdB deserve the award when he’s only won the league cup this season?

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1 hour ago, Adrock said:

Yes, he is the best player in the league.

 

Yes but he along with the best squad ever assembled managed to finish 18+ points behind a Liverpool team led by the apparently totally average at best Jordan Henderson (according to social media) with only 11 decent players and no squad depth (according to other fans). 

If Henderson managed to get this Liverpool team to a title over that City team... then I'd happily give him all the awards. 

As said though, De Bruyne will get the PFA Player of the Year as that I think is more geared towards individual skill and stats, whereas the FWA encompasses much more. 

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Just now, Adrock said:

The idea that the FWA award is more than skills and stats is patently wrong.

 

Why though? Gerrard is a better player than Henderson and had the likes of Torres, Suarez, Alonso, Sami, Reina, etc around him and couldn't get Liverpool over the line. Henderson did, he did more for the club than pure skills and stats. 

In the team I coach, the first names on my team sheet aren't the ones who are the most skillful, or the ones who get the most goals, but the ones who get the team to work well as a unit. 

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This is a wonderful video, featuring De Bruyne, Pirlo, Thiago, Kroos, Ozil. Watching a perfectly weighted pass is one of the most pleasing things in football, especially when very few players can do them. De Bruyne's the most impressive for me out of all these. It's the distance they travel and the pace that makes him stand out, for vertical through balls the ball accelerates so much but he gets two bounces in before the player receives to just kill the speed enough. The one at 2:54. I guess he can trust the pace of Sterling though. 5:08 is stupid. Just rewatching it over and over. It's like a sprint for all the defenders to get back, they don't even think to consider what's happened, it so comprehensively demolishes their defence. The first one shown of De Bruyne is so ridiculously perfect you'd think they'd practiced that exact pass dozens of times rather than something that was judged in the moment, one of those passes that sets up the decision for Sane for him, no second touch needed. It's rare to see long passes drilled along the floor. And side footed, does anyone hit side footed passes with little backlift and as much power, it seems unique to him.

 

I don't mind Henderson winning it really, but it'd be nice if De Bruyne could win before he leaves for another league, he's probably the best passer/midfielder the premier league has seen.

 

also stumbled over this '50 greatest managers' list compiled last year, with accompanying article for each. Not a surprise who is no.1. Bielsa is too low, Ancellotti and Mourinho too high.

 

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/the-50-greatest-football-managers-of-all-time?utm_source=pocket-newtab

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11 hours ago, Adrock said:

All of that guff doesn't really marry with the reality of the last 10 years.

 

Yes, Henderson is immense in the role he fulfills and he has done brilliantly driving through the player's response to the covid 19 crisis but the fact is the best player gets the award. Of course best player is subjective but it's never take taken into account anything but football and if that was the case this year Henderson wouldn't win. He wouldn't be in the top 5.

 

9 hours ago, Adrock said:

The idea that the FWA award is more than skills and stats is patently wrong.

 

9 hours ago, Adrock said:

As I said earlier, check out the last 10 winners.

 

 

 

I did. The first player on the list is West Ham's Scott Parker.

West Ham finished bottom in 2010-2011.

Parker topped no lists of stats that I can find.

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, bradigor said:

In the team I coach, the first names on my team sheet aren't the ones who are the most skillful, or the ones who get the most goals, but the ones who get the team to work well as a unit. 

 

The first name on my team sheet is generally the company that made the team sheet pad.

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27 minutes ago, Yobo Ahoy said:

Doesn't he play for Norwich?

 

Yeah. :) I was watching some football videos, one titled 'Emiliano Buendía - Technical Elegance', thinking; oh who is this young player who plays in some far away league I don't watch, then i notice he plays for Norwich. Granted I don't follow Norwich, but never spotted him in any highlights on motd. (I did miss all motds since the return though). Maybe that's how the edits go, only 1 goal scored, but 7 assists this season. I'm not very observant I guess. Premier league players of all teams regularly do technically good things all the time, you don't often sit up unless you're paying close attention. 

 

I guess it just surprised me someone so exquisite with such brilliant confident  timing, pirouting all over the place was there in a team bottom of the league, back in the Championship. In the video there's a few bits of him terrorizing Barcelona. /slight exaggeration 

 

I often watch skill videos of young players and think they're extraordinary, how they anticipate, how alert they are, the speed, tightness and deftness of touch, kind of beyond anything I've seen in the past. I remember watching one of Isco years ago and becoming infatuated. It doesn't neccessarily correlate to effectiveness on the pitch. Then you're into consistency, decision making, off the ball movement and positioning which highlight clips don't really show. Anyway Buendía might yet get a transfer to another premier league club, he's only 23. 

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14 minutes ago, Loik V credern said:

 

Yeah. :) I was watching some football videos, one titled 'Emiliano Buendía - Technical Elegance', thinking; oh who is this young player who plays in some far away league I don't watch, then i notice he plays for Norwich. Granted I don't follow Norwich, but never spotted him in any highlights on motd. (I did miss all motds since the return though). Maybe that's how the edits go, only 1 goal scored, but 7 assists this season. I'm not very observant I guess. Premier league players of all teams regularly do technically good things all the time, you don't often sit up unless you're paying close attention. 

 

I guess it just surprised me someone so exquisite with such brilliant confident  timing, pirouting all over the place was there in a team bottom of the league, back in the Championship. In the video there's a few bits of him terrorizing Barcelona. /slight exaggeration 

 

I often watch skill videos of young players and think they're extraordinary, how they anticipate, how alert they are, the speed, tightness and deftness of touch, kind of beyond anything I've seen in the past. I remember watching one of Isco years ago and becoming infatuated. It doesn't neccessarily correlate to effectiveness on the pitch. Then you're into consistency, decision making, off the ball movement and positioning which highlight clips don't really show. Anyway Buendía might yet get a transfer to another premier league club, he's only 23. 


He will hopefully be great for Spurs next season ;) 

 

On a serious note he was amazing in the championship last year and has had moments this season, Norwich have several players that are a class above the average of the team and all would do well in bigger teams so it’s a worry for Norwich fans that they will be stripped in the transfer window.

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The Athletic had an article at the start of this season back in August about Norwich and Buendia - the clubs model is based on unearthing or bringing thru and selling on the odd gem, their expectation was after a season in the prem Buendia would attract their record fee received - they rated him very highly.

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Yeah it's a shame about Norwich. They looked great for the first few months. I love watching Cantwell despite his awful hair and terrible celebrations, far from the finished article but his movement and technique is brilliant. 

 

 

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Buendia, last seen getting himself stupidly sent off for elbowing Ashley Westwood in the head.

 

I liked Norwich, but they were clearly, terribly, terribly lightweight.  It's all well and good being committed to a passing game and when they did it, it was lovely to watch.  Also, I echo the enjoyment of watching Cantwell.  But a team likely to be at the bottom really need a couple of bastards in it, preferably either in the middle of the park or the defence.  And Norwich (and to an extent Villa and Bournemouth) don't have that.  They were too nice.  You need someone who will do this to the oppositions star player.

 

tarkowski-zaha.gif

 

 

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21 hours ago, Gotters said:


I had a good run for 30y of league failure and will always have the joy of Gerrard falling over.

 

This is so weird. Why would you even care about Liverpool? We'd barely been challengers for most of those 30 years (but then again, neither have Arsenal for about 15, lol etc.)

 

I mean, I have no affinity with Man United, but I still don't really care what they get up to, even when they were winning every year. I even appreciate when they play well and the good players they have.

 

Football rivalry is so base at times (general comment, not specifically aimed at you.)

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Said it in here before but my dislike of Liverpool is unique in that I feel nothing like it towards any other club. 

 

Any other team that is winning by playing a bit of football and with some decent players I can take something from. Watching Liverpool though that feeling of strong dislike (I'll never use silly words like hate for football) kicks in as soon as the first few bars of that dreary song kick in at Anfield.

 

Didn't get it from my dad (he's a cricket man) so blame it on schooling formative years in the 80s.

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But surely 1989 should've been the catharsis you needed to move on? (I mean, obviously not because he we are.) Arsenal were a really good team from the mid-80s onwards, too.

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25 minutes ago, Gotters said:

Said it in here before but my dislike of Liverpool is unique in that I feel nothing like it towards any other club. 

 

Any other team that is winning by playing a bit of football and with some decent players I can take something from. Watching Liverpool though that feeling of strong dislike (I'll never use silly words like hate for football) kicks in as soon as the first few bars of that dreary song kick in at Anfield.

 

Didn't get it from my dad (he's a cricket man) so blame it on schooling formative years in the 80s.

 

I have no connection with Liverpool whatsoever but they definitely have a disproportionate amount of annoying fans. The worst trait of these particular fans is making everything about them. I mean, I was in a Championship comments thread on The Guardian yesterday and a Liverpool fan somehow crowbarred in a comment about Liverpool. Like there isn't 5 articles a day about them.

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You don't get it Timmo.  It's always about them, and their relationship to the game.  A certain part of the psyche where it has to be explained just how important football is, and how important Liverpool is to football.  It's the never ending battle for success, where 15 trophies in 30 years isn't defined as success, but as 15 struggles which were briefly overcome, before drawing the shortest of breath and heading up the next hill.  A world where the sun is shining, the grass is green, the birds are singing and this one red-shirted voice walks away, in search of a storm that they want to - no... have to - walk through.  But they will do so, with their head held high, because it means more.

 

I've posted this before from when Klopp joined in 2015 - https://grantland.com/features/making-the-case-for-liverpool/

 

Quote

You know what the problem is? The problem is that Liverpool has no idea whether Liverpool is supposed to be fun. Jürgen Klopp, the club’s freshly unveiled new manager, is fun. Gegenpressing, the tiki-taka-on-MDMA playing style on whose groovy back he took Dortmund to consecutive Bundesliga championships in 2011 and 2012, is fun. The touchline repertoire of leaps, aerial punches, spins, and roundhouse kicks with which he air-guitars his teams to victory and rages against defeat is fun. His hipster glasses are fun. His nonchalance toward media scrutiny of his hair transplant — “I think the results are really cool, don’t you?” — is just totally super fun. But whether Klopp–grade fun can thrive at Liverpool, a club whose atmosphere has historically veered more toward tragic splendor than anything as trivial as pleasure — that’s the question.

 

The glory years of Liverpool were not fun years, in the main. Your Shankly–Paisley Reds were many wonderful things — a working-class grand opera, a footballing juggernaut, a kind of heavy-thighed insurgency against Thatcherism — but they were seldom really enjoyable; the stakes were always too high. You enjoyed a Liverpool match the way the French exiles in Casablanca enjoy “La Marseillaise” — sincerely, but for the movement more than the music. After the Hillsborough disaster, the club’s iconography became (understandably) even more serious. Liverpool became the secular-religious club of eternal flames and memorial verses and walking through the storm with your head held high, which is an identity you can only cultivate if you anticipate a steady supply of storms to walk through.

 

Even through the Rafa Benitez era, Liverpool’s notable successes tended to be Miracle-of-Istanbul-style apotheosis comebacks against impossible odds, occasions for St. Crispin’s Day halftime talks and the noble tears of Steven Gerrard. It was dramatic. It was intense. As a form of fan engagement, it was borderline ecstatic. But fun? The fans thanked Benitez by silkscreening his face onto enormous Che-inspired agitprop banners; that was the tone in which the Kop liked to operate.

 

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^^^^^^^ this says things so much more articulately than I could

 

it's that, its the fact that a win isn't just a win but overcoming everything that is against them (both genuine and paranoia induced perceived injustices)

 

it's the 'this matters more' slogan - which manages to outrank even Barca's similarly cringe inducing 'more than a club' 

 

it's then the desire to win you over against your views, you're wrong, it really does matter more, they really did do it against the odds and the world etc 

 

its the mawkish over-sentimentality around the club that is pushed by media and fans, the sort of drivel you see on BBC when the FA Cup is (oh look, its Ronnie Bradford, Ricky Villa, Bert Trautman etc) on but its for every single match they are involved in

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7 hours ago, Pants McSkill said:

 

 

 

 

 

I did. The first player on the list is West Ham's Scott Parker.

West Ham finished bottom in 2010-2011.

Parker topped no lists of stats that I can find.

 

 

 

 

Pointing out the 1 in 10 is disingenuous. Post the rest of the list and then formulate the same argument, stats don't tell the whole story for sure but clearly the last 10 winners before Henderson show a clear and obvious pattern of the best player of the season winning. Despite the outlier that is Scott Parker.

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