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The Last of Us Part 2

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2 minutes ago, sid said:


I agree, wouldn’t the world be a better place if everyone were a little more tolerant. But using your ‘aaa’ property to bring about a revolution ...... certainly brave that’s for sure.

 

 

Why is that particularly brave? Has anyone at NG said that this is supposed to bring about a revolution, or is this just something detractors have made up?

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2 minutes ago, sid said:


I agree, wouldn’t the world be a better place if everyone were a little more tolerant. But using your ‘aaa’ property to bring about a revolution ...... certainly brave that’s for sure.

 

Im sure there are other examples of similar use of aaa properties in this way, just can’t think of any 

You’re sounding more and more like you agree with the fella in your first video (which for the sake of discussion I have now viewed in full) but I’m imagining that like most of us here you haven’t read the plot spoilers, so there’s no context, or you have but are too afraid to admit you agree with him. 

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21 minutes ago, CarloOos said:

It's not just games, of course. The visual effects industry is exactly the same and I rarely see any talk of boycotting the latest Avengers/Star Wars films.


Yeah was gonna say something similar myself when people were talking about not buying the game, but I guess it’s harder to pin down reports as the experience of working on the same movie can vary from studio to studio compared to a game made all under one roof.

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1 hour ago, CarloOos said:

It's not just games, of course. The visual effects industry is exactly the same and I rarely see any talk of boycotting the latest Marvel/Star Wars films.

 

In some ways VFX can be even worse because it's often spread across multiple companies all undercutting each other and driving costs down, so there's no fucks given by Disney (for example) when they either go bust or lay everyone off at the end of a long crunch period.

 

I'd say VFX is in better shape these days, the handful of people I know who work across both industries think games are generally worse. I'd say the Rhythm and Hues debacle with Life of Pi seemed to effect some change. I've done a lot of work at Framestore the last few years and they have a decent working culture in my experience and seem to be very successful with it. The other big UK based VFX houses haven't had as good a reputation historically but even they seem to be getting better in this regard.

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11 minutes ago, Stanley said:

You’re sounding more and more like you agree with the fella in your first video (which for the sake of discussion I have now viewed in full) but I’m imagining that like most of us here you haven’t read the plot spoilers, so there’s no context, or you have but are too afraid to admit you agree with him. 


yeah not read the plot spoilers

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4 minutes ago, petrolgirls said:

 

I'd say VFX is in better shape these days, the handful of people I know who work across both industries think games are generally worse. I'd say the Rythm and Hues debacle with Life of Pi seemed to effect some change. I've done a lot of work at Framestore the last few years and they have a decent working culture in my experience and seem to be very successful with it. The other big UK based VFX houses haven't had as good a reputation historically but even they seem to be getting better in this regard.


Yeah I found it varies from project to project and who the internal Supervisor and Producer are more than the actual vendor or movie. But there’s definitely an intent to make things better at all the big places. 
 

Apart from MPC obviously. 

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14 minutes ago, petrolgirls said:

 

I'd say VFX is in better shape these days, the handful of people I know who work across both industries think games are generally worse. I'd say the Rythm and Hues debacle with Life of Pi seemed to effect some change. I've done a lot of work at Framestore the last few years and they have a decent working culture in my experience and seem to be very successful with it. The other big UK based VFX houses haven't had as good a reputation historically but even they seem to be getting better in this regard.

 

We probably have some mutual acquaintances, quite a lot of my friends either currently work or have worked at Framestore in the last few years. I work in finishing rather than VFX but know people who have worked at pretty much all the London houses at some point.

 

One recent quote that's stuck with me was a friend who said he was actively hoping to get fired from ILM because The Mandalorian was so horrible.

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1 minute ago, sid said:


yeah not read the plot spoilers

That guy seems to take offence at black or gay characters and storylines even being in games at all, or even female characters - then tries to mitigate this by claiming Amy Hennig was treated poorly - I mean she didn’t even work on The Last Of Us. 

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20 minutes ago, Sarlaccfood said:

Apart from MPC obviously.

 

Ha, I was going to call out MPC but then I've heard some ok things about them recently - although more shortform than longform. You pay the price for it though, it's a struggle to hold on to talent which is really problematic in the long term. Imagine it must be the a similar issue for big game studios. 

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2 hours ago, sid said:

No I don’t believe in ‘this stuff ‘, but I Find it very interesting seeing the internet explode at a aaaa property I assume is pushing hard at some sort of lbgt agenda.

 

My take - as long as it is complementary to the story then great, you get to broaden people’s thinking and tolerance outside of that media. For example if it is a love story between Ellie and her girlfriend against a backdrop of everything else going on.  
 

But my fear is that they have gone too far to the point of being obsessed with it to the point of preaching. 

 

Judging by the small internet explosion......the latter may be true.


I’m a white cis male, I hope this is a game about a fanatical cult of religious “breeding” obsessives who target Ellie and her partner for their sexuality, or something like that. I dearly love brutally dispatching fascists for hours and hours and hours. 
 

On the flip side, if it’s a part of the plot that isn’t really front and centre and isn’t played as much of a big deal, I’m all for that too because it normalises the kind of thing that drives disgusting internet people up the wall. It’s win-win. 

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51 minutes ago, Broker said:


What turns you into such a coward that you can’t even admit you’ve got these bigoted views? Like how did you end up as the kind of person who wants to share this kind of ultra right wing garbage, but somehow you don’t have the spine to admit it’s what you believe and need to pretend you’re trying to just start some discussion on an interesting topic? Do you discuss these kind of things in other places and admit that you agree, but feel like you’re winning a sly victory by trolling us with this because we’re stupid lefties and you’ll get away with it if you act like you seeing a whole bunch of videos by an extremely niche audience of MRA psychopaths is just the norm because everyone is discussing this very important topic? Or are you not able to admit you believe this to yourself, and need to imagine you’re just taking in the talking points of these kinds of people as an interesting thought experiment? Do you look at that list of angry white dudes who hate people who aren’t white dudes and genuinely think that’s a normal group of people to be listening to?


What the actual fuck

 

honestly this place :/ proper head in the sand . But that’s your happy place I understand. You cannot understand why other people might have those views, clearly , and also think that it is not worth discussion.

 

Then you come out with some personal attack calling me a coward for not having a view you clearly think I have ???

 

ban request right here wtf

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15 minutes ago, sid said:


What the actual fuck

 

honestly this place :/ proper head in the sand . But that’s your happy place I understand. You cannot understand why other people might have those views, clearly , and also think that it is not worth discussion.

 

Then you come out with some personal attack calling me a coward for not having a view you clearly think I have ???

 

ban request right here wtf

What’s that supposed to mean, who had their head in the sand? You appear to at least vaguely agree with a video from a racist, sexist homophobe - understanding why he has those views are of no concern to me, why should I give a shit what he thinks, and why do you? Either express yourself or accept that those whose views you are sharing will be considered your own. 

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23 minutes ago, Stanley said:

What’s that supposed to mean, who had their head in the sand? You appear to at least vaguely agree with a video from a racist, sexist homophobe - understanding why he has those views are of no concern to me, why should I give a shit what he thinks, and why do you? Either express yourself or accept that those whose views you are sharing will be considered your own. 


Why do you think I agree ? I am literally just pointing at a shit storm brewing to get some conversation going. 
 

to call me a coward because I dont agree ....wtf

 

this place is unable to explore anything in any balanced way. To be called a troll for posting those vids....just wow. For such a left leaning forum , the lack of understanding for others is tragic.

 

 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, sid said:


What the actual fuck

 

honestly this place :/ proper head in the sand . But that’s your happy place I understand. You cannot understand why other people might have those views, clearly , and also think that it is not worth discussion.

 

Then you come out with some personal attack calling me a coward for not having a view you clearly think I have ???

 

ban request right here wtf


Head in the sand about what? I’m fully aware that there’s a metric tonne of horrible men who hate the idea of things not being about men. What I’m confused about is whether you’re a spineless MRA who knows they’d lose a direct debate if they presented their opinions, or a deluded moron who genuinely believes they’re not a bigot, they’re just someone who watches bigoted Youtubers.

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8 minutes ago, Bojangle said:

Discussing this is definitely better than just negging the offending post(s). Just look at the discourse.


it actually is.  It’s showing anyone reading that there’s a whole host of people that disagree with the views being posted in a really constructive manner. Would much rather have that than some red against a post with zero discourse. 

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9 minutes ago, sid said:

this place is unable to explore anything in any balanced way. To be called a troll for posting those vids....just wow. For such a left leaning forum , the lack of understanding for others is tragic.

 

Well, I was asking some questions, but you've ignored them.

 

I think the main one is whether you're aware of NG doing this to start a revolution, or whether that's just something that's been made up by detractors.

 

It's quite hard to know what your position is - on one hand you say that you're keen on this progressive, inclusive aspects of games, but on the other you seem to not really want it in this one; citing it as somehow risky, revolutionary and the like. I've also asked you to cite some TV shows which have throw in LGBT relationships in a token way, which led to the plot being degraded or backlined for it. I can't think of any, but you seem to think they're quite common. Obviously, I don't watch every show so I've probably missed them.

 

It would be good to find a common point of reference to discuss.

 

Ultimately, if we all think it's great (and I include you in that), I'm not really sure what debate you want to get out of a bunch of Gamergate-esque Youtubers getting hung up because of alleged "agendas" and conspiracies. They're quite obviously wrong, as far as I can tell - and I don't think you'll find many people to stick up for them. You're aware of these people and believe they're significant commentators (as you think this issue is going to be massive), so if you're not particularly convinced by them, and you know about them, it sounds as though their area of influence is actually quite small.

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And how do you change their opinion @Broker ? Point at them and call them names ? That will not change the world.

 

changing opinion at this level must be handled with delicacy and subtlety imo. I think the first game and certainly the dlc did so. I just hope ND have continued at that level. Any extreme swing will just turn people who hold those views off. 
 

the impact of that will be commercial, and could lead to a reluctance to introduce similar themes in future projects , films, games

 

You seem like an intelligent man, surely you can understand this rather than resort to chucking muck in my direction.

 

i think you’d prefer me to align my views with them. But it is only by understanding these people that you can start to effect change. You can’t just ignore it

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12 minutes ago, sid said:


Why do you think I agree ? I am literally just pointing at a shit storm brewing to get some conversation going. 
 

to call me a coward because I dont agree ....wtf

 

this place is unable to explore anything in any balanced way. To be called a troll for posting those vids....just wow. For such a left leaning forum , the lack of understanding for others is tragic.


the thing is to get the conversation going you have to have some input into the conversation.  Posting some some idiots views with zero comment isn’t going to really get us talking.   There’s no real point you’re making other than saying “ some wankers on the internet are getting really worked up about some real or imagined LGBT focus in the story” and we’ve no idea whether you think there’s an issue or not. There’s not much discourse. 

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3 minutes ago, Lying Cat said:

 

Well, I was asking some questions, but you've ignored them.

 

I think the main one is whether you're aware of NG doing this to start a revolution, or whether that's just something that's been made up by detractors.

 

It's quite hard to know what your position is - on one hand you say that you're keen on this progressive, inclusive aspects of games, but on the other you seem to not really want it in this one; citing it as somehow risky, revolutionary and the like. I've also asked you to cite some TV shows which have throw in LGBT relationships in a token way, which led to the plot being degraded or backlined for it. I can't think of any, but you seem to think they're quite common. Obviously, I don't watch every show so I've probably missed them.

 

It would be good to find a common point of reference to discuss.

 

Ultimately, if we all think it's great (and I include you in that), I'm not really sure what debate you want to get out of a bunch of Gamergate-esque Youtubers getting hung up because of alleged "agendas" and conspiracies. They're quite obviously wrong, as far as I can tell - and I don't think you'll find many people to stick up for them. You're aware of these people and believe they're significant commentators (as you think this issue is going to be massive), so if you're not particularly convinced by them, and you know about them, it sounds as though their area of influence is actually quite small.

 

Can't give any more praise today, but this with bells on.

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2 minutes ago, sid said:

i think you’d prefer me to align my views with them. But it is only by understanding these people that you can start to effect change. You can’t just ignore it

 

I actually disagree with this. These people aren't going to change their outlook on this, they can only become irrelevant as the world moves on. It's why they're using terms like "Agenda", they fear the world moving forward without them and their prejudice.

 

On another topic then - take Milo Yiannopoulos. While people debated with him he continued to spew hateful shit all over the place. The second he started to become deplatformed, he faded into total obscurity and all his allies summarily abandoned him, fearing to be tainted. Do you think this was the right course of action, or was the correct decision made (as I believe it was) to stop him from doing what he was doing?

 

It's similar to what's happening here. As we're both progressives - do we actually need to debate the topics of these dinosaurs? We know they're wrong, and we hope they're doomed. Nothing we can really say will change their minds, so why bother at all? The crunch-abuse is a different thing, of course. I think that's actually pretty relevant.

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yeah certainly an interesting point of view. But when there is a high proportion of your customers potentially not buying a product.....it could genuinely have a big impact. Shareholders won’t want lesbian leads again for example.


My worry is that it’s not as minor as you might think......I guess the sales figures will tell.

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5 minutes ago, sid said:

yeah certainly an interesting point of view. But when there is a high proportion of your customers potentially not buying a product.....it could genuinely have a big impact. Shareholders won’t want lesbian leads again for example.


My worry is that it’s not as minor as you might think......I guess the sales figures will tell.

 

I'm assuming you're not actually going to tackle any of the genuine questions I'm putting to you about your opinion, then?

 

edit - I think any concerns over sales numbers are a complete red herring, by the way. Even if it came out and was universally panned by critics, it would sell gangbusters.

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1 minute ago, Lying Cat said:

 

I'm assuming you're not actually going to tackle any of the genuine questions I'm putting to you about your opinion, then?


go for it

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1 minute ago, sid said:


go for it

 

No no, you go for it. I've asked my questions to you in several posts above this one, quoting you each time. You don't even need to click on a prior page. Unless this takes us over a page, in which case you will.

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6 minutes ago, sid said:

 But when there is a high proportion of your customers potentially not buying a product.....it could genuinely have a big impact.

 

It's not and it won't. The people mad about this make up such a tiny % of the people buying the game that Sony/ND won't even notice if every single one of them didn't buy it. (they will buy it because they need to consume content).

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28 minutes ago, sid said:

And how do you change their opinion @Broker ? Point at them and call them names ? That will not change the world.

 

changing opinion at this level must be handled with delicacy and subtlety imo. I think the first game and certainly the dlc did so. I just hope ND have continued at that level. Any extreme swing will just turn people who hold those views off. 
 

the impact of that will be commercial, and could lead to a reluctance to introduce similar themes in future projects , films, games

 

You seem like an intelligent man, surely you can understand this rather than resort to chucking muck in my direction.

 

i think you’d prefer me to align my views with them. But it is only by understanding these people that you can start to effect change. You can’t just ignore it


Ah, the old straw man. “But Broker, how do we change thing minds of imaginary people we weren’t discussing?”

 

I’m not sure how we do that sid, it’s not really within my sphere of influence. What’s interesting here is why you feel that your contribution to the discussion of this issue should be finding a group of people who believe in a progressive agenda, and trying to force them to discuss regressive, bigoted points. If your interest is genuinely in the world becoming more progressive, why would you find the viewpoints of people who are extremely conservative and try to raise them as a discussion with progressive people?
 

It’s pretty well established that this place leans to the left. It’s fairly obvious what people who don’t hate minority groups receiving representation will feel about minority groups receiving representation. They will support it. By extension, it’s extremely easy to guess what people here will think about videos that are trying to expose the liberal agenda. They’ll think they’re stupid drivel. And shockingly, that’s exactly the response you got. 
 

If you genuinely care about the idea of the world being more tolerant, then what purpose does it serve to seek out people who already agree with you and present them with poorly argued opposing opinions? If you genuinely care about better representation, why are you watching YouTube videos made by people who on principle hate the idea of wider representation? More than that, why would you present the opinions of an extreme minority as some major issue that’s worthy of discussion, when nowhere except these minor bigot centric channels are discussing it?

 

It seems like you think their views are representative of wider opinion, which would suggest that you either don’t view much gaming media outside of this small niche or you believe that a wide number of people agree with this small niche of people but aren’t saying that for some reason.

 

None of your actions are consistent with your stated motivations. Which makes it much more likely that you’re someone who agrees with these youtubers, which is why you watch them. Because the alternative is that you’re a person who thinks that they support a progressive agenda by watching long conservative YouTube videos and then trying to force left wing people to discuss them with you. Given how incredibly stupid you’d have to be to be that kind of person, it seems relatively obvious that you’re someone who agrees with these people, but you just don’t have the courage to admit that here because you know it will be unpopular. So instead you’re creating these bizarre pretend left wing concerns to try to justify your desperate need to present people you know won’t like your bigoted views with your bigoted views through a proxy.

 

What I don’t understand is why. It’s probably concern trolling to try to waste people’s time, but I wonder if part of you was genuinely hoping that you’d post the inane ramblings of whatever YouTube video you’d just finished watching and we’d all suddenly see the light, and realise that actually it’s very dangerous to try to tell a story about zombies with a trans person in it.

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7 minutes ago, Bojangle said:

 

It's not and it won't. The people mad about this make up such a tiny % of the people buying the game that Sony/ND won't even notice if every single one of them didn't buy it. (they will buy it because they need to consume content).

 

Bang on. Babies do scream loudly, so it's easy to forget how small they are in number.

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