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The problem with Tilly is just how out of place she is in the context of a military space force.  In the Scooby gang, sure. In the armed forces, not a chance.

 

And maybe it's just me but I doubt her obesity and her moles would really be a thing in the paradise-like Star Trek Earth of the future.

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54 minutes ago, Mogster said:

Starfleet isn't a military space force. To quote Picard, "Starfleet is not a military organization, its purpose is exploration".

It's no use telling us that. Somebody needs to tell Alex Kurtzman.

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3 hours ago, Mogster said:

Starfleet isn't a military space force. To quote Picard, "Starfleet is not a military organization, its purpose is exploration".

 

Tilly served 100 years before that quote.

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Yeah, agreed. It's fundamentally a military organisation. It has military discipline (not that there's much of it on Discovery!). Starfleet Academy is basically Space West Point. TILLY even implausibly runs a half-marathon in record time as part of some physical fitness requirement. Starfleet is the space navy and the starships we're most familiar with are HMS Endeavour in space.

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Gene Roddenberry was with Picard on this one it seems:

 

Quote

Starfleet is not a military organisation. It is a scientific research and diplomatic body.

Although the duties of the Enterprise may include some military responsibilities, the primary purpose of the Enterprise — as with all Starfleet vessels is to expand the body of human knowledge.

 

Anyway, TNG featured a blind man as its chief engineer. I think it's okay for Discovery to feature an "obese" (really?) person on the crew.

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I messaged a friend who first got me into Trek, via TNG, DS9, and Voyager the other day. He never liked the new films, even when I blathered on about how they were “fun but not really Trek.” I thought we could laugh and commiserate about how absolutely, well and truly awful Discovery is.

 

 

He likes it.

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30 minutes ago, Mogster said:

Gene Roddenberry was with Picard on this one it seems:

 

 

Anyway, TNG featured a blind man as its chief engineer. I think it's okay for Discovery to feature an "obese" (really?) Person on the crew.

 

If we accept that as the gospel truth- the next question is this: if not Starfleet, which organisation is the military for the UFP? 

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As I said in the other thread, in Star Trek Beyond Scotty spells out precisely that Starfleet is not a military organisation. In fact, that very thing is the motivation for the villain doing what he's doing in the film.

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How does this all tie in with series 3 of Enterprise, where Archer suddenly acquires a contingent of military grunts on board the ship?

 

(Not that it makes any difference, as he still takes his entire senior crew down to the surface of every random planet he finds, prioritising the ship's translator and the bloke who hits the engine with a spanner over anyone with any actual military training)

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26 minutes ago, drmick said:

 

If we accept that as the gospel truth- the next question is this: if not Starfleet, which organisation is the military for the UFP? 

 

There isn't one. If it comes to it then Starfleet can fight, obviously, but that's not their main purpose.

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6 minutes ago, Garwoofoo said:

How does this all tie in with series 3 of Enterprise, where Archer suddenly acquires a contingent of military grunts on board the ship?

 

(Not that it makes any difference, as he still takes his entire senior crew down to the surface of every random planet he finds, prioritising the ship's translator and the bloke who hits the engine with a spanner over anyone with any actual military training)

It was set before the Federation had been established. There wasn't even a prime directive at the time. If I remember rightly they weren't Starfleet officers either, but were borrowed from 'the military' specifically for that mission.

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2 hours ago, Mogster said:

 

There isn't one. If it comes to it then Starfleet can fight, obviously, but that's not their main purpose.

 

I think it might all boil down to one's definition of military, and I'm guessing the Americans infer a slightly different context to the word invoking nationalism and perhaps it came too close to being associated with the Korean and Vietnam conflicts (and latterly the post 9/11 Middle East conflicts).

 

Paramilitary, with its literal definition, probably best describes the role, but I'm guessing the origin of the word requires the existence of an actual military!

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9 minutes ago, drmick said:

 

I think it might all boil down to one's definition of military, and I'm guessing the Americans infer a slightly different context to the word invoking nationalism and perhaps it came too close to being associated with the Korean and Vietnam conflicts (and latterly the post 9/11 Middle East conflicts).

 

Paramilitary, with its literal definition, probably best describes the role, but I'm guessing the origin of the word requires the existence of an actual military!

I guess the difference is, although Starfleet ships are equipped for battle, they're not heading out there to carry out military operations. There's no Starfleet invasion force, they're not occupying other planets or looking to expand their territory (at least not by force) They're just out to explore. Even the Klingon war seemed to be pretty much by proxy until Discovery came along and made it all pew pew pew.

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3 hours ago, Death's Head said:

Although I suppose as always with Starfleet it's say one thing and do another - the Enterprise-D is very well armed for a diplomatic ship after all.

 

It's all a bit "don't fuck with the Culture".

 

As far as I'm aware, the Galaxy-class ships were as heavily-armed as they were because they were generally sent to places where they didn't know what the hell they were going to encounter. Deep space exploration and all that stuff. Better go prepared.

 

Bit of a slippery slope, though, since Starfleet seemed to stick more and more guns on their ships, and then you had fucking monstrosities like the Prometheus in Voyager.

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The Prometheus was awesome though. :D

 

New Trek has been really lacking when it comes to Design, actually. All the TNG era shows had some incredible ship and technology designs, all managing to feel consistent and believable while looking really cool at the same time. Even TOS managed this to some extent, thinking about it. I couldn't picture a Discovery phaser or tricorder in my head though, and the best design in the show was the Enterprise bridge which was obviously based on the original.

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I thought the TOS movies had the best designs. I even loved the uniforms. You had refit Enterprise, the Excelsior, the cool starbase design, the Bird of Prey - all really good, solidly-designed stuff. It also felt like the ships had a proper 'weight' to them, like they were these massive things that took their time to turn around.

 

Then you have... whatever the fuck New Trek has. The Discovery itself isn't a terrible design, but literally everything else that isn't riffing off of an existing design is absolutely horrendous.

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I really need to watch all the movies again, but yes they're full of amazing stuff. One of my favourite scenes from the whole lot is that bit in TMP where Kirk's just staring at the Enterprise for about five hours, because it all just looks so good. :D

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12 hours ago, Meh said:

 

As far as I'm aware, the Galaxy-class ships were as heavily-armed as they were because they were generally sent to places where they didn't know what the hell they were going to encounter. Deep space exploration and all that stuff. Better go prepared.

 

Bit of a slippery slope, though, since Starfleet seemed to stick more and more guns on their ships, and then you had fucking monstrosities like the Prometheus in Voyager.

 

Indeed.  Starfleet is basically a military organisation, despite what anyone says, since they are the defense force of the Federation. Look at the Defiant class ship, it has really no role to play apart from operating in a conflict situation. 

 

Just because Starfleet doesn't set out to conquer and wage war doesn't make not a military organisation. The mere fact that part of its role is defense of the Federation and Federation planets makes it a military force. The British Army doesn't spend much of its actual time waging war but it is still fundamentally a military organisation. Starfleet just has other strands as well, such as exploring and science, but part of its reason for being is definitely military.

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I would've liked to have seen Starfleet become a little paranoid and less-friendly after the nightmare that was the Dominion War, which is where I thought ships like the Prometheus would hint at the direction they were heading in, and something I'd hoped we'd see in that other Star Trek show we all hate.

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4 hours ago, McCoy said:

 

Indeed.  Starfleet is basically a military organisation, despite what anyone says, since they are the defense force of the Federation. Look at the Defiant class ship, it has really no role to play apart from operating in a conflict situation. 

That's sort of the point. The Defiant was a bit controversial because it was designed just for fighting. Specifically the Borg threat. Up to then, fighting was a secondary defensive thing.

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3 minutes ago, JohnC said:

That's sort of the point. The Defiant was a bit controversial because it was designed just for fighting. Specifically the Borg threat. Up to then, fighting was a secondary defensive thing.

 

Sure, although it's not like the Enterprise D couldn't pack a punch if it wanted to. I'm just saying defence was a key part of Star Fleet's remit. For me, that makes them at least partly a military organisation. 

 

The ranks and command structure similarly suggest a military basis. Otherwise you'd effectively just have the UN in space with every decision going to a Committee vote!

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Well that's the point - Starfleet say one thing and do another. I'm sure there have been characters that have called them out on this over the years (not that I can remember).

 

Picard is something of an outlier in that he honestly believes in the aims and values of the Federation, much as Worf is pretty much the only Klingon that honestly actually believes in honour (as Picard well knows!)

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