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4 minutes ago, Oz said:

yeah I guess the combat point is a matter of preference. I prefer taking my time with things. but....... uncharted 4 lacks detail? i am afraid you are letting the newes of this game cloud your judgement. search your feelings. you know uncharted looks better. 

well she is the white saviour of the brown people though... no? she is 'the dances with wolves' of this story. that does put me of a bit. 

 

In Dances With Wolves, Costner's character is saved by the indigenous Americans, not they by him - they are doomed by any measure, and his experience of the whites is, if anything, a bit too cartoonish in depicting their boorishness. The film is based on the experiences of an actual white American, so I'm not sure how that story could have been told in another way, unless it wasn't told at all. 

 

In this game, Aloy is herself from a 'savage' tribe and is looked down on by many others because of that, including many people of various (old world) ethnic backgrounds - as Harry noted, the tribes all tend to be of mixed ethnicity. They could have made Aloy a different colour, true enough, but she's not saving 'brown people' any more than she's saving 'white people'. And at least she's not a bloke, again.

 

I think sometimes this sort of debate is as binary and unsophisticated as the 'BEST GAME EVAH' one. Reminds me of some of the criticism of La La Land as well, where the White Man is the saviour of Jazz. He isn't - he's on a road to nowhere with it, far too reverential and prone to putting the form in a museum, slavishly learning the actual licks of actual black jazz players from history. Whereas the black guy he teams up with has understood and commercialised the product - moved it forward in time like a living thing, evolving it and making money from it, as he explains to the fuddy-duddy jazz traditionalist white man whilst employing him and thereby actually making him the success that allows him to indulge his white man's jazz club fantasy. Yet some 'critics' seem to have it the other way around, with the white guy playing the mantle of Jazz God to the black guy's feckless ne'er-do-well. It's plainly evident that he isn't doing that at all; that's he's aping a past form, and that he's basically a loser who's enabled to pursue his dream by the success of a back jazz player who moves the form forward and makes a success of it.

 

I don't know how people can't see that. It's almost as if people are informed more by their own prejudices than the nuances of the stories themselves.

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10 minutes ago, Gorf King said:

 

In Dances With Wolves, Costner's character is saved by the indigenous Americans, not they by him - they are doomed by any measure, and his experience of the whites is, if anything, a bit too cartoonish in depicting their boorishness. The film is based on the experiences of an actual white American, so I'm not sure how that story could have been told in another way, unless it wasn't told at all. 

 

In this game, Aloy is herself from a 'savage' tribe and is looked down on by many others because of that, including many people of various (old world) ethnic backgrounds - as Harry noted, the tribes all tend to be of mixed ethnicity. They could have made Aloy a different colour, true enough, but she's not saving 'brown people' any more than she's saving 'white people'. And at least she's not a bloke, again.

 

I think sometimes this sort of debate is as binary and unsophisticated as the 'BEST GAME EVAH' one. Reminds me of some of the criticism of La La Land as well, where the White Man is the saviour of Jazz. He isn't - he's on a road to nowhere with it, far too reverential and prone to putting the form in a museum, slavishly learning the actual licks of actual black jazz players from history. Whereas the black guy he teams up with has understood and commercialised the product - moved it forward in time like a living thing, evolving it and making money from it, as he explains to the fuddy-duddy jazz traditionalist white man whilst employing him and thereby actually making him the success that allows him to indulge his white man's jazz club fantasy. Yet some 'critics' seem to have it the other way around, with the white guy playing the mantle of Jazz God to the black guy's feckless ne'er-do-well. It's plainly evident that he isn't doing that at all; that's he's aping a past form, and that he's basically a loser who's enabled to pursue his dream by the success of a back jazz player who moves the form forward and makes a success of it.

 

I don't know how people can't see that. It's almost as if people are informed more by their own prejudices than the nuances of the stories themselves.

I agree that I am happy she is not a bloke. but she did not have to be white. and the fact that she is the only pure white (when everyone else appears to be mixed) and also the most apt combatant and hero of the story does rub me the wrong way. this is because of my own experiences and prejudices. I am more affected by them than the nuances of the story. as is everyone. are you white? do you think you are unaffected by your own experiences and it does not "colour" (BOOM) your perception of this game?

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1 hour ago, Cosmic_Guru said:

I'm in a definite minority here in not being blown away by this.  I seem to have reached "the point of no return" on the main quest line so will post final thoughts after that and exit the thread post haste.

 

1 hour ago, df0 said:

I have a hard time about caring about anything this game throws at me. Just leave the beasts/tribes be and strengthen your tribe's defences. Ow no, someone got killed by a beast/other tribe. Who cares? Especially when in the vast majority of the cases your investigation results in a battle where after your victory the NPC is content/consoled. Full stop. Now to do it again for another random NPC somewhere in the world. It is all so very boring, almost worthless. I find myself skipping all the non-story related dialogue.

 

edit: I side with you Cosmic Guru. Good start for a new IP, no doubt. But 9s and 10s? There is a ton of room for improvement.

 

I'm with both of you. It's a pretty good game and I'm enjoying parts of it, but "Game of the Year!" in a year with this line up? Nah. I'm not a big fan of open world games, so the crafting grind, and the endless side missions that Aloy gleefully accepts are somewhat of an annoyance. Inventory management is a joke. Only being able to climb onto certain ledges is irksome.

 

I'm not seeing anybody have an issue with Aloy once again mention the biting cold, the melting snow, saying she needs to find a track (that I've already highlighted and am following), telling me that "this seems like a good spot to jump on to the tallneck" or telling me that she should use the focus.

 

The game handholds/prompts you an awful lot. Have you reached the mid-point of a quest where you have to talk to the character who literally ends their sentences with "FOLLOW!" and haven't talked to him/her immediately? Be prepared for a bunch of "ALOY! COME TALK TO ME ALOY! ALOY PLS! ALOY STOP WASTING TIME! ALOY PLS TALK TO ME! ALOY WHY ARE YOU GHOSTING ME? I CAN SEE YOU RIGHT THERE PICKING UP MORE FLOWERS! ALOY! ALOY! ALOY!"

 

With that said, I am enjoying the game but the parts I'm enjoying the most are Aloy's character, a story that is keeping me interested and just casually wandering around the map taking in the sights and finding new ways to take out the robots. I just don't think it's as good as people have led me to believe. To me it just seems like "generic open world game" wrapped in an intriguing world with a fantastic main character and a few really fun enemies. The point that made me realise I wasn't liking the game as much as I thought was last night, I went to the Grave Hoard and then realised there was a whole bunch of game left. My reaction wasn't "AWWWW YISS! BRING IT ON!" but more of a " <_< ".

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I don't care that she's white. That might be because I've kind of accepted it as the norm, though. I was pleasantly surprised that the Sun King appears to be Indian (my own ethnic background and a group which gets next to no representation in games as far as I'm aware).

 

I was super interested in the trailer for the Uncharted 4 expansion (before it was obvious that it was Uncharted) because I thought the character might be a lady from the middle east/Indian subcontinent. But it turns out it's Chloe. I have no idea where she's from but she's ethnically ambiguous, called Chloe Frazer and I can't remember if she's suppose to be Australian or the voice actor just does an awful British accent. Either way, she doesn't count.

 

 

@df0 You should probably spoiler that.

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Decided to play this on 'very hard' due to advice in this thread, and am glad I did. Taking on a single big machine is a challenge, taking on more than one means tactics like hacking etc become essential. If they hit me more than twice in a row then I'm dead, which is as it should be. 

 

I'm still quite astonished by how good the game looks. If anything it shows the Pro up as being unnecessary when the base PS4 can still output such incredible visuals. I never take screenshots in games, but here I've been snapping away, with the new ability to turn those screenshots into dashboard themes obviously being a big plus. 

 

Gameplay wise, it's a lot of fun. At least, while you're fighting machines. The human opponents are bland and tedious, but thankfully you're not forced to go up against them too many times. I've reached the second 'big' area and, despite a few interesting new machines types, am not enjoying it as much as the first thus far. It just seems like a less diverting landscape to explore, certainly compared to the rich greenery of the first area, but that may change. 

 

Just hoping for a big T-Rex style Zoid now, I have a few more to discover so there's still a chance! 

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3 minutes ago, HarryBizzle said:

I don't care that she's white. That might be because I've kind of accepted it as the norm, though. I was pleasantly surprised that the Sun King appears to be Indian (my own ethnic background and a group which gets next to no representation in games as far as I'm aware).

 

 

Same, I don't have any issues with Aloy being white at all. Much like yourself I was pleasantly surprised that the Sun King was from the subcontinent, but then they go ahead and make him a thirsty dude :lol:

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53 minutes ago, Oz said:

I agree that I am happy she is not a bloke. but she did not have to be white. and the fact that she is the only pure white (when everyone else appears to be mixed) and also the most apt combatant and hero of the story does rub me the wrong way. this is because of my own experiences and prejudices. I am more affected by them than the nuances of the story. as is everyone. are you white? do you think you are unaffected by your own experiences and it does not "colour" (BOOM) your perception of this game?

 

Everyone's affected by their own experiences, and I am white. But there are lots of white characters in the game, and that's not something I'm seeing because I am white. It would rub me up the wrong way if the 'natives' were all non-white, and the heroes were all white, or there were no important non-white characters, or they were all powerless, or victims, and so on, but that's not the case. I agree she could have been non-white and that would have been fine, and maybe even better, and I agree there needs to be better representation of non-white characters in games in general. But I think there has to be, more than anything, diversity in games, and obviously there should be games with white people, non-white people, male heroes, female heroes, male/female villains, they need to be nuanced rather than stereotypes, everything. As long as it works in service to a decent story.

 

I think this game has done quite well in terms of representing that diversity. I don't think there is a single perfect model that should be conformed to. The game can be criticised, but it is part of a broader gaming/cultural landscape and in that landscape it's near the top end of the spectrum when it comes to depicting race and gender. That doesn't mean it's beyond criticism, but Aloy is not 'the white saviour of the brown people'. That's a complete misrepresentation. And I'm not sure what you even mean by her being the only 'pure white'. Do you mean she's the only ginger? Cos I'm not ginger, but I am white, although not the deathly pallid sort, and I have black hair and brown eyes. So I suppose we all look different too, but there are plenty of 'white people' in this game whom Aloy saves.

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Can I mop up any side quests / item hunting after I finish the main story in this?

 

If not is there a clearly signposted point where I should stop off to do that sort of stuff?

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1 hour ago, Gorf King said:

 

Everyone's affected by their own experiences, and I am white. But there are lots of white characters in the game, and that's not something I'm seeing because I am white. It would rub me up the wrong way if the 'natives' were all non-white, and the heroes were all white, or there were no important non-white characters, or they were all powerless, or victims, and so on, but that's not the case. I agree she could have been non-white and that would have been fine, and maybe even better, and I agree there needs to be better representation of non-white characters in games in general. But I think there has to be, more than anything, diversity in games, and obviously there should be games with white people, non-white people, male heroes, female heroes, male/female villains, they need to be nuanced rather than stereotypes, everything. As long as it works in service to a decent story.

 

I think this game has done quite well in terms of repressing that diversity. I don't think there is a single perfect model that should be conformed to. The game can be criticised, but it is part of a broader gaming/cultural landscape and in the landscape it's near the top end of the spectrum when it comes to depicting race and gender. That doesn't mean it's beyond criticism, but Aloy is not 'the white saviour of the brown people'. That's a complete misrepresentation. And I'm not sure what you even mean by her being the only 'pure white'. Do you mean she's the only ginger? Cos I'm not ginger, but I am white, although not the deathly pallid sort - I have black hair and brown eyes. So I suppose we all look different too, but there are plenty of 'white people' in this game whom Aloy saves.

I probably need to play more then. All the people I have saved are brown thus far.  Maybe you save a white dude later. The other white guy is the oseram dude who is a brilliant warrior type and saviour too. Then there's her dad who was a master hunter. That brown guy who wears the focus is a traitor and thief. She does try to save her dad but we all know how that went. By pure white I guess I do mean ginger. Lol

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I think we may have different definitions of 'white'. Are there only 'white' and 'brown' people in this game? I've seen a few different racial types, or mixtures, or looks, or whatever. But the Sun King obviously isn't white, and he's not a 'victim' or underling any more than any other main character, there's a couple of later characters which you might or might not have got to that have great influence and wisdom/power who obviously aren't white, and as for Olin, his VA is a British Asian guy but that character model is not Asian-looking at all to me. You seem to be saying he doesn't look white, but if he doesn't, nor do I. So there's my prejudices showing - I never thought for a moment of Olin as a 'brown' person, but I don't think anyone who hasn't got porcelain skin and ginger hair as non-white. Most of the people in this game look like what many of us are - fucking mongrels. 

 

The heroes/villains/strong/weak people seem fairly evenly distributed so far along race and gender lines, at least within reasonable parameters that fit the game's concepts of this future world. I mean, there's always going to be room for improvement, but if we look at the portrayal of diversity in other games - especially other games that came out in the past few months - to pick on this one as an example of something that rubs you up the wrong way seems an odd choice. It's clearly had a lot of thought put into that aspect of it, though is no doubt imperfect (indeed, there's no such thing as perfection here). I guess I find it odd for you to pull this up on the issue of diversity when a few pages back you reported with evident pleasure that the character model of the 'white saviour' lead was based on a Dutch model and actress who 'got her tits out' (biggrin.gif). Seems a bit rich to be so upset about the lack of diversity in a title while simultaneously playing to the worst and most prevalent stereotyping of women in media. Like, you wouldn't be grinning approvingly if old Olin there's VA had got his cock out, would you?

 

Feh.

 

42 minutes ago, p1nseeker said:

Can I mop up any side quests / item hunting after I finish the main story in this?

 

If not is there a clearly signposted point where I should stop off to do that sort of stuff?

 

Apparently, you can mop up anything else before the last mission, which is clearly signposted as a jump-off point. And then you can go back to that save after finishing, so you can actually do that stuff after completion. Not 100% on that, as I haven't finished yet.

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27 minutes ago, Oz said:

That brown guy who wears the focus is a traitor and thief.

 

I thought Olin was white?

 

I do think it's a more broadly mixed than you're giving it credit for.

Spoiler

The Nora War Chief woman is not someone you save, but someone you work with, and is a black woman. Zaid the slaver is a bad white man. Erend is a decent white drunk. Varl is a decent Nora brave, and a black man (who you don't save.) The Chief Matriarch (Teersa?) is, I think, black. The girl you like in the Proving is black, the cunty dude is white.

 

So yeah, maybe Aloy could have been something else. I don't think it takes away from the fact that they've made a game full of women and a diverse set of skin colours and some of the other diversity (I bumped into a gay man as part of a quest, and it was just in passing that it comes up and so on.)

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44 minutes ago, Gorf King said:

I think we may have different definitions of 'white'. Are there only 'white' and 'brown' people in this game? I've seen a few different racial types, or mixtures, or looks, or whatever. But the Sun King obviously isn't white, and he's not a 'victim' or underling any more than any other main character, there's a couple of later characters which you might or might not have got to that have great influence and wisdom/power who obviously aren't white, and as for Olin, his VA is a British Asian guy but that character model is not Asian-looking at all to me. You seem to be saying he doesn't look white, but if he doesn't, nor do I. So there's my prejudices showing - I never thought for a moment of Olin as a 'brown' person, but I don't think anyone who hasn't got porcelain skin and ginger hair as non-white. Most of the people in this game look like what many of us are - fucking mongrels. 

 

The heroes/villains/strong/weak people seem fairly evenly distributed so far along race and gender lines, at least within reasonable parameters that fit the game's concepts of this future world. I mean, there's always going to be room for improvement, but if we look at the portrayal of diversity in other games - especially other games that came out in the past few months - to pick on this one as an example of something that rubs you up the wrong way seems an odd choice. It's clearly had a lot of thought put into that aspect of it, though is no doubt imperfect (indeed, there's no such thing as perfection here). I guess I find it odd for you to pull this up on the issue of diversity when a few pages back you reported with evident pleasure that the character model of the 'white saviour' lead was based on a Dutch model and actress who 'got her tits out' (biggrin.gif). Seems a bit rich to be so upset about the lack of diversity in a title while simultaneously playing to the worst and most prevalent stereotyping of women in media. Like, you wouldn't be grinning approvingly if old Olin there's VA had got his cock out, would you?

 

Feh.

 

 

Apparently, you can mop up anything else before the last mission, which is clearly signposted as a jump-off point. And then you can go back to that save after finishing, so you can actually do that stuff after completion. Not 100% on that, as I haven't finished yet.

No I was only kidding about the nudity bit (which is why I used the biggrin to explain that I was kidding). I am really disappointed that it came across that way as I was being ironic and referring to a previous statement made about the model. I am strongly against the stereotyping of women in the media. I am father to a 3 year old daughter and do concern myself with this stuff every day. and do concern myself with diversity in my day to day life being a foreign living in London. But I am just expressing an opinion about how the game made me feel in relation to the diversity topic (which was that I was disappointed that given the balls that it took to make it a lady they made her what I considered at the time to be only white person in the game), but maybe it is just my perception or where my head was at the moment. it is just my opinion and I am not always right. 

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Tough.

 

Mike, I just thought he was white too. His VA is this guy:

 

Chook_Sibtain-2.jpg

 

Oz: It's ok man, I just thought it odd to throw that in off the cuff but be put out by issues of race in this game in particular.

 

I dunno. I just think of all the games out there, and out there right now, the one that is so obviously trying to portray a diverse, leaning-toward-the-feminist take on how we relate to characters, one that so clearly doesn't give any shrift to racial/religious stereotyping, is this one. I mean, it just stood out right away to me. And not just from the 'is this person male/female', 'are they white/black' binary character standpoints, but from the more important attitude of values and beliefs. There's a thread running right through the game about matriarchy, about family, about concern for others, about nature, about nutters who crave power, about intolerance, and about lots of other things that just screamed out - but didn't do so overly loudly or clumsily for the most part - a desire to not be macho. (A hunting game that's not macho? Take that, Ubisoft!) To not be black and white in terms of tribal allegiances - the good/bad people and the strong/weak can come from any tribe, or gender, and racial backgrounds are mixed throughout. (A tribal game that's not tribal? Take that, Ubisoft!) 

 

Mind, I had started this game straight after finishing Yakuza 0. Now, when it comes to racial and gender stereotyping that's probably one more obviously worthy of comment - of horror - albeit a quite brilliant game. Like, totally unhinged brilliance, not at all like this more considered stuff; but undoubtedly very deeply mired in a particular set of sometimes quite demeaning stereotypes. So I guess I felt the contrast with this game more keenly when I started it. I still think it's odd that there's rarely a mention of this issue in other games' threads when the issue there is clearly more evident (dare I even mention Zelda?), but it crops up here. I can think of... well, just about any other game (with characters in it) that I've played which stereotypes them across racial and/or gender lines far more.  But maybe the clue to that lies in the reactions any discussion of this type gets - we should confine that sort of commentary to its own ghetto, eh Gizamaluke? 

 

But obviously, like everyone, I'm just relating to the game from my own perspective. I don't see the game as being about the one white saviour and the sea of brown people she saves at all. I just don't recognise that in it, but that's me, a non-blond/blue-eyed white type. It just looks like a bunch of non-stereotypical characters (in terms of race and gender) sometimes clumsily embodying ideas that are deliberately designed to oppose such divisions. I'm sure they haven't got it perfectly right, I'm sure it could be improved, but I'm also sure they've given it a decent shot and equally sure that many other developers simply couldn't give a shit or are not aware there's an issue at all.

 

Now back to talk of skinning rabbits. *beats chest at Gizamaluke*

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1 hour ago, p1nseeker said:

Can I mop up any side quests / item hunting after I finish the main story in this?

 

If not is there a clearly signposted point where I should stop off to do that sort of stuff?

 

There is a clearly signposted point when you can either go to the end game or leave to carry on with side quests etc. Then after the game has finished it

 

Spoiler

puts you back to just before the final mission

 

so you can carry on with side quests etc then as well

 

I finished this last night, 41 hours it took me and I enjoyed every minute of it and I'm someone who gets bored quickly of Ubisoft/GTA style open world games.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Captain LeChuck said:

 

Edit: Saying that, they could have taken the risk and gone for a non-white lead character. 

 

They made her a ginger, that's a big enough risk as it is. The game should have come with a complimentary pack of Rich Tea biscuits to smell for the complete experience.

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1 hour ago, Mrs Horribleman said:

I thought this game did an admirable job of diverse characters. 

 

I've not played it as much since Zelda came out, but does anyone know how much is left after grave hoard?

 

However much is left, it kinda feels like too much for me. But I know if I take a break from it, it'll sit unfinished forever. So I'm just going to power through and try to finish it in the next few days.

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22 minutes ago, Scruff said:

 

They made her a ginger, that's a big enough risk as it is. The game should have come with a complimentary pack of Rich Tea biscuits to smell for the complete experience.

Gingers have suffered long enough. They deserve to be treated as equals.

:D

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50 minutes ago, Oz said:

Gingers have suffered long enough. They deserve to be treated as equals.

:D

 

Red Sonja can dominate me whenever she wants!

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8 hours ago, Captain LeChuck said:

Nope, I played Uncharted 4 very recently. Only the interiors at the very end of the game are comparable to what we have on offer in this game. 

You played both on the pro yes?

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Wait so you are playing on a 4K panel now? Or just a new 1080p panel?

10 minutes ago, Captain LeChuck said:

Yes indeed. But for Uncharted 4 I had my old 1080p TV, so it had the "advantage" of downsampling. Which was non-existant to my eyes. 

 

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