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"If it's in the game, it's not cheating"


elmo
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I love throwing in the odd noob combo in Halo 3. Nobody expects the noob combo.

It doesn't work as well as it did, though. That being said, there are a surprising number of people that don't know the plasma pistol disables vehicles.

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I never heard of this noob tube, but I find it utterly bizzare that anyone would object to the use of weapons in a war game. I can understand if there are particular matches being limited to particular weapons, but without that, all weapons should be freely usable.

The reason most people take exception to it is how it's used in a quite suicidal way by a lot of players. You get two grenades per life, and people tend to use them quickly and then die almost on purpose to get two more. Personally I don't give a damn normally, the players that use them are usually poor, but it can be a little annoying.

The other example is people using them when a round starts and aiming towards the other team. This takes insane accuracy but it can get kills, and the other team can do nothing about it. Ironically it's a tactic about as far away from 'noob' as you can get, as only the most experiened players will know how to do it. It's pretty much cheating though, in my opinion.

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The whole idea of "if it's in the game it's not cheating" is flawed because games DO contain flaws which people will exploit.

You don't need to go as far as some of the stuff on the Tourneyfag link - and I'd ignore anyone trying to discourage use of a weapon just because they think it's "too powerful" (lol!) but some things have to be ruled out of any 'fair' competition.

As an example, slamming into the side of cars in PGR2 was a VERY easy way of getting ahead as you used them as both a brake AND cornering aid - now in reality you'd be black-flagged for such behaviour but games aren't great arbiters of blame so people have to step in...

It'd be interesting to see how devs find a way around this. Games like Americas Army had rules where you could get a global 1-week ban for team-killing, and your character profile stated your character was in prison. Also, Planetside had a system where griefing would cause your weapons to begin to lock up, your vehicles to stall, and your ammunition to misfire.

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Incredible thread, good work.

The main example I remember of having to enforce strict gaming rules was when we used to play a four player Rainbow six game on the Dreamcast - No flashbangs!

Flashbangs were of course the BEST thing about the game, but whenever one exploded it seemed to have about a 20% chance of crashing the game. Naturally each game would start off with overzealous shouting at those who broke the rule, but the problem was that using flashbangs was hilarious - each session we ever played inevietably resulting in clusterfuck of white flashes followed by a screenfreeze. ;)

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As far as all this 'Tourneyfag' stuff goes, the general rule in the pro gamer 'community' is that if a game is undoubtedly imbalanced in favour of certain characters/weapons/tactics, then it's not even remotely appropriate for tournament play. I'm baffled by the idea that people would play Smash Bros 'professionally' despite it being designed to be as far from a 'professional' game as possible.

If it's in the game then it's not cheating. If you think it is cheating, then have the guts to either beat'em or join'em.

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Whaaat? That's the best thing about that track. Holding onto a lightning for ages just to use on that jump is frowned upon, but that's what the ghost is for.

Not having a go at you or anything, but I can't stand pissy bad losers - I play my little bro at Pro Evo regularly and anything goes, but he was telling me about a bloke he goes to uni with who outlawed running into the box and passing it across to score. Seriously. What a little bitch.

It's a total ball-ache to recover from, and it's no fun when someone ends up miles in front with no way of catching them. We also banned people from doing the instant left turn/hop to cut out half of the track. However I do agree your Pro Evo example is ridiculous.

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I stopped playing Team Fortress Classic when the userbase disappeared up it's own arse with 'community rules'. Stuff like you weren't allowed to fire at a member of the opposing team if you passed them in the space between bases or you'd get kicked. Funnily enough they were a-ok with exploits in the engine. ;)

I believe the Jedi Knight online community was full of loltastic informal rules as well.

A mate of mine was a shit hot TFC player when he was at college, and he tried to have us play by tourney rules.

As soon as he told us we couldn't chase the scouts running into our base, we took the piss until he ragequit in a huff. He was serious about that shit and it made perfect sense in his mind, but he couldn't actually explain why anyone would want to play by such rules. I understand now why those rules were followed, but at the time we all thought he was mental and having some kind of mental breakdown.

Regarding Jedi Knight, you read this? - http://www.alwaysblack.com/blackbox/bownigger.html

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I must admit I felt that slamming cars into the wall on corners on PGR was a touch "ungentlemanly", however if it happened then I wouldn't kick up a fuss as it is part of the game. What did annoy me though was sometimes if you over cooked a corner and piled into another car by accident that some people would go mental and just whine and whine about it.

Some of the informal rules though as mentioned can act as a barrier to playing a game that has been out for a while. I remember first playing Ghost Recon online on the PC, sometime after it had been released. The server was setup to spam everyone with "n00b on map alert" if they broke some rule (like staying still for too long), of course being new to the game I was tripping all sorts of these unknown rules, so hence I never went back to it.

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With racing games, I think it comes down to a split between people who would characterise themselves as gamers, and those who'd say they're racers:

Gamers feel it's legitimate to use every possible tactic in the game to go fast and win races, whether that's wallriding, ramming, cutting, and so on - because if the game didn't think this was appropriate, it would be coded in such a way so as to not confer an advantage.

Racers are trying to emulate motorsport and don't think these things are appropriate, and as some of the things neccesary to counter bad behaviour, such as referees are near-impossible to implent fairly in a game and others (large barriers preventing cuts, sticky walls) would be unfair to legimate racing incidents or mistakes.

Excatly, and just how I feel.

If the game is not about shooting the shit out of the other player, such as racing, then you should play as the game is encouraging you to do. If players are ramming me off the road in a game like PGR4 and SEGA Rally then I'll just not play with them again, if it's accidental then that's part of the race. ;)

I just get grumpy when people shout at you for killing them in COD4 as I have my default gun as the M4 Carbine with the backups G36C and the AK47. I've read that the M4 is overpowered but people can easily, and do, take me out with other guns with no parlarvor.

The Shotgun is powerfull but I can take out the gunner in one second with a knife if I'm quick enough. Noob Tube? Give me a break.

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The M4 is no way overpowered, not sure where you're read that. It was in the beta, but they added sway to nerf it from being as good at long range as it is medium. The only gun that's (arguably) overpowered is the M16, but it takes a good shot to be effective with it, and it's sub par at close range due to the burst fire, so in my opinion it's not overpowered at all.

I'm still constantly taken aback by how amazingly balanced CoD4 is. 15+ days and I still use different guns all the time.

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The M4 is no way overpowered, not sure where you're read that. It was in the beta, but they added sway to nerf it from being as good at long range as it is medium. The only gun that's (arguably) overpowered is the M16, but it takes a good shot to be effective with it, so in my opinion it's not overpowered at all.

I'm still constantly taken aback by how amazingly balanced CoD4 is. 15+ days and I still use different guns all the time.

I got a rather lovely Message from a player on Xbox Live ages ago criticising the last game as I used an Noob Tube.

COD4 is the first online shooter I've ever played seriously so I had no idea of the terminology but when I read it up online it talked about the M4 Carbine. The next game I took note of the three rifles I use and noticed pros and cons to all three so I was a bit stumped by it all.

Out of all the online games I've played on the 360 and now PC, I've never noticed one Gun that stuck out as a be all and end all weapon. Every gun or technique has a counter that any player can apply, so I never see an issue with a player using one or another.

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Mario Kart DS was ridiculous, with people snaking all over the track in order to get extra boosts. I don't agree with this kind of play, it's stupid.

Some people actively look for ways to bend the game engine to do things that the developers never intended to happen or be possible. They're exploits, which I consider a form of cheating.

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Some bloke came round my house one day and beat everyone constantly with the Dragon Punch spam in SFII. We didn't have a clue WTF was going on and presumed he was a genius.

Anyway, it annoys me when you randomly join a game online and get negative comments about using stuff like noob tubes. You're just playing the game and don't have time to swot up on the cultural do's and dont's of every purchase you make. If you don't want people using these weapons then set your host setting appropriately, make it clear in the title, or have a closed game.

I'm still trying to work out what an EMO is FFS!

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It wouldn't even occur to me to complain about or feel slighted by anyone using the grenade launchers in CoD4 - they're giving up a perk to get them and they only get two shots, and the same weapon is available to me, so good luck to them. Technically I suppose you could say the same thing about the sniper rifle we agreed to 'ban' in Rainbow Six, but with that it was more the case that if one person chose it you all had to choose it, because otherwise you didn't stand much of a chance. I hardly ever use the grenade launchers in CoD4 and regularly come out on top, so I don't see any problem.

I guess I just can't take CoD4 that seriously - people lobbing blind, cooked grenades at the start of the match just make me laugh, if it works it's a funny, cheeky kill. I just respawn and get on with it.

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With regards to PGR4 if I overcook a corner and bump someone, I will pull over and let them regain their position. I just like clean racing not glorified bumper cars.

You're joking right? In all my surreal FM PGR4 sessions if there was any bumpery-pokery, I'd call the person a bit of a cock, have a laugh about it, and drive on my merry way, generally overtaking with skill <_<

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I also remember when Project Gothem Racing first went online and there was a massive argument on here on whether or not bumping should be allowed. I just saw it as a tactic. "There you go you fucker, you have allowed me to catch up with you on a corner... now eat wall" but some people saw it as unsportsman like. But it must have been a design choice to let people bump and for it to be so effective. You just have to look at the MotoGP games to see that penalising bumping can be pretty easy.

I certainly saw this as unsporting. Effectively it turned a racing game where you're trying to prove you're the best "racer" into a game where by you show you're the best basher.

Bashers like yourself, Elmo, lacked the skill and grace to actually be good at racing.

Secondly it was half design choice and half not.

See, penalising penalties/docking points/seconds is 1) just too hard to code/make right for everyone (someone will end up on the wrong end of a ludicrious ai decision) and 2) they didn't have the time/tech to do damage.

3) Yes, it was partially by design because they realised the bumping and rubbing is fun, after all, and that most people would run a mile from a game that penalised them in such a way.

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You're joking right? In all my surreal FM PGR4 sessions if there was any bumpery-pokery, I'd call the person a bit of a cock, have a laugh about it, and drive on my merry way, generally overtaking with skill <_<

Depends who I'm playing with I guess, if the game is full of cocks who just bash their way round then I don't but if it's a group who want a proper race then yeah I do that.

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I certainly saw this as unsporting. Effectively it turned a racing game where you're trying to prove you're the best "racer" into a game where by you show you're the best basher.

Bashers like yourself, Elmo, lacked the skill and grace to actually be good at racing.

I'd freely admit I lack the skill and grace to be good at racing, I just wanted to play the game with some friends for fun. For us, part of the fun was more agressive driving. Don't get me wrong though, I wouldn't do it in games with random people I didn't know, cos that would suck, but within a group of friends I don't see the problem with it.

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Nothing is actually cheating, But I do get annoyed with people on COD WAW who just use automatic weapons only, and its shows the Kill Cam with them just spraying it with no accuracy, how about giving a rifle a go?

FIFA aswell, people who pick Man Utd and score the same crappy through ball, sprint through type goal with Ronaldo or Rooney, Rubbish

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Nothing is actually cheating, But I do get annoyed with people on COD WAW who just use automatic weapons only, and its shows the Kill Cam with them just spraying it with no accuracy, how about giving a rifle a go?

What?! Rifles better at long range, autos at short range. I don't see your problem.

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You can't solve the 'bumping' issue with software - too many shades of grey - you either live with it or you make the cars 'transparent' (at which point people use walls for the same trick which can be solved with damage modelling ofc.)

In real life the only thing which stops people doing this are marshalls who will ban you - but a computer would never be subtle enough to see the diff between a bit of rubbing and all out abuse...

It's worth remembering that even the AI used that trick in PGR2 - I've lost count of the races I had to redo because the computer would punt you off in the last corner <_<

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What?! Rifles better at long range, autos at short range. I don't see your problem.

disagree, its just as easy to kill at long range with an automatic

maybe its just that im not very good but a rifle like the Arisaka or Mosin is useless unless you kill them with one shot, the other guy will just unload his MP40 into you while your rifle reloads another bullet

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I love throwing in the odd noob combo in Halo 3. Nobody expects the noob combo.

Same, it's still surpisingly decent if you're accurate enough. I used to kick up a big fuss in the days of Halo 2 because literally every game at one time would be a race to get the combo, it was fucking stupid. Saying that I still had no problem using it myself, just found it incredibly fustrating to be killed by. Things like superjumping, sword flying and button combinations I consider out-and-out cheating, since they were in no way intended by the developer and give the player a MASSIVE advantage if used properly.

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After I read David Sirlin's Playing to Win, I got 95% less annoyed with everything in Virtua Fighter.

There is no cheap. If you got beat with just tap throws in SF, just low punch in VF or whatever it is, then you're to blame for being so shit you couldn't adapt. In fighting games especially, (apart from when there are actual glitches for infinite combos I suppose, don't really play those games :lol:), there are two things: Win or Lose. If you want a pre specified quota on Dragon Punches, that's great, but don't play with me.

I get an amazing amount of fun through this philosophy. It's only when I'm with friends and we know we'll play 50 matches and they won't be able to beat said tactic that I'll change it, but that's just not being sociopathic and adapting to the situation. It's not idea, but even a compromise can be fun.

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Yeah with games I know are good like Street Fighter II it doesn't bother me if someone beats me "cheaply" because I know its my fault. Its my failing. I know it is balanced enough so that the only reason i'm getting beat is because my tactics/technique isn't up to scratch. Makes it all the more satisfying managing to find the flaw in someones cheap tactic. I'm not really good at fighting games though, just saying from experience of playing casually with mates.

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