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Massive Invisible Dog
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Irrespective, an arbitrary number of attempts to beat those designs, forcing you to repeat yourself again and again, is idiotic. If I want to complete Ikaruga on a single credit, then that's a challenge for me to set myself, the game shouldn't force me to do it. Change the 'single' to any number you like and it's still true.

I think that's exactly it. You can have the option to impose such a thing on yourself (or it could be reserved as a special bonus achievement or whatever) but in many cases it's simply arbitrarily preventing the player from getting to the content they've paid for, and may not have the time or inclination to simply keep going at it again and again and again.

I'm, obviously, in the camp of lives being a hangup from the old arcade days when games were artificially hard to keep you piling the cash in. For a few things they make sense, but generally speaking in modern games there's much better alternatives.

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Herein lies the thing. Lack of vision, everything centered on ones self.

I, me, and myself.

Not really - you're backwards.

The player could always pretend they've only got a few lives, if that's their taste, but you can't pretend otherwise in a game which enforces such a convention on the player.

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Not really - you're backwards.

The player could always pretend they've only got a few lives, if that's their taste, but you can't pretend otherwise in a game which enforces such a convention on the player.

MID is just quoting things he always likes/wants. He cares little for "the player" just "him as the player".

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No. You could have it so you'd have to change your strategy to get passed a given section.

Actually rewarding thought and skill as opposed to sheer time investment.

How many games really require thought, though?

I'm replaying Paper Mario 2 at the moment and while I love it just as much as the first time I played it, I'm a bit sad that it just isn't much harder. It seems that enemies are made harder just by upping the HP.

Most games aren't especially taxing, mentally anyway. I'm all for rewarding thought and skill, just give us more games that involve them.

In the context of a standard Mario level, that's fine, and it's also nothing to do with lives. You die, you go back to the start of the level or the checkpoint. Fine, so long as it's not a ridiculous long level then I don't mind that.

The problem when you introduce finite lives is that when you run out you're put back several levels or the checkpoints are reset, which is what I don't like.

Okay but then what's the point in having lives if you don't get put back, or checkpoints are reset, or whatever?

No one is going to play a game that gives you the same restrictions as life, otherwise it's pointless. However, if you go to the other extreme and have a game that's limitless in terms of restrictions, unless it's very much a sandbox type game, where's the challenge?

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Okay but then what's the point in having lives if you don't get put back, or checkpoints are reset, or whatever?

That's entirely the point of the thread. If you're in a situation where a particular section is so hard for you that you've lost again and again (and used up your finite amount of retries), is it more fun or less fun to have to redo a bunch of other stuff unnecessarily just to try that section again another 5 times?

I'd suggest that it is less fun. And that it would be more fun to, instead, just be able to retry that section or level or whatever as many times as you like without additional punishment.

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Ah yeah, the Astral Pouches are basically are 'fairies' from Zelda, arent they :( (dont tell scottr lol)

So they do have a point; if you work hard to earn them, then you won't have to reload your game. I don't find that a bad idea, to be honest.

SO THEY ARE!

:(

I've died in Okami a few times already. You need to go back to your most recent save... which is a pest as, UNLIKE, Zelda, it doesn't save your achievments up to that point.

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That's entirely the point of the thread. If you're in a situation where a particular section is so hard for you that you've lost again and again (and used up your finite amount of retries), is it more fun or less fun to have to redo a bunch of other stuff unnecessarily just to try that section again another 5 times?

I'd suggest that it is less fun. And that it would be more fun to, instead, just be able to retry that section or level or whatever as many times as you like without additional punishment.

But isn't a finite pool of lives a game's way of saying, "You're not skilled enough for this bit yet. Now, retrace your steps on the preceding sections until you are better with controls and timing"? And thereby building a kind of skill or mastery that comes from being one with your game that we don't see much any more? Rather than letting you bash your head against a wall until it falls.

I'm reminded of the retarded kid from the book At Large, who managed to break into weapons networks, dam controls, banks, NASA and such not because he was particularly skilled, but because he kept bashing away until something worked.

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That's entirely the point of the thread. If you're in a situation where a particular section is so hard for you that you've lost again and again (and used up your finite amount of retries), is it more fun or less fun to have to redo a bunch of other stuff unnecessarily just to try that section again another 5 times?

I'd suggest that it is less fun. And that it would be more fun to, instead, just be able to retry that section or level or whatever as many times as you like without additional punishment.

As its been said before, it's more of "you're not ready for the rest of the game, keep trying".

I don't know, I just remember how games like Sonic and Mario would frustrate me at that one jump or baddie that I'd keep dying - but by the time I'd done it 5 or 6 times, I was whizzing through the rest of the level and doing it almost flawlessly.

I can see why it's incredibly frustrating if you have to redo some complex or long winded task just to get back to where you are but then, in games like Zelda and Okami where it's really a bugbear, do you ever really die anyway? I didn't die once in TP or Okami, in the latter I only used two astral pouches all game.

I really hope the next gen of games give you more of a challenge that isn't just "this bastard has 9,999 HP and attacks with power five times yours. Good luck!".

Yes, I'm still pissed off about Seymour Flux.

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Although I love the Phoenix Wright games with a passion, there's nothing more frustrating than "failing" a court section by trying a few off-the-wall things, and having to redo an entire section (which involves sitting there, clicking through everything you've already read for anything up to 20 minutes, to get back to where you failed and try again). It's exaggerated here because there's literally nothing new to do or see once you've already played through once. These games, more than most, would be improved if they were nicer to the player and just allowed infinite retries.

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  • 10 years later...
On 13/03/2007 at 22:56, SMD said:

unless it's very much a sandbox type game

 

8-) I'm good

 

Though I was surprised the first time I fell into a bottomless pit that it just took coins off me, I can see why they made the change looking at the Moon List.

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Just played a bit where I died a few times and thought “Man, it would have been so much more fun if after that third time I died I had been sent back a bit further in the level and had to work my way back to the bit where I died. That must be why it’s only at 97 on Metacritic and not 98 like Tony Hawk’s 2”

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